Valve spring installed upside down

[rickyhils]

With my infinite wisdom I installed an exhaust valve spring UPSIDE DOWN. 1991 Loyale EA82 non turbo SPFI .  I will correct it but not till I fabricate a safe and efficient way. I am going to be driving it a bit and stay below 3k rpm. I will need a better way to compress the spring with engine in car. The rental tool was a PITA as limited space. Any thoughts much appreciated.

Edited June 5, 2020 by rickyhils
spelling

[ferp420]

pull the spark plug stuff as much string in to the cylinder as posable  ring the cylinder up as close to top dead center as posable ive compressed the springs by hand many times

[Step-a-toe]

I have been able to compress EA82 double valves springs by hand as well but they were toast, soft as marshmallow, installed by a specialist head service

New are a different story. I had engine out to do this job in my GLTA.

How did you spot it Ricky?

And you! did it? And admit it ?!

[el_freddo]

Unless the seating of the spring at either end is not flush, I don’t see how this is an issue. It will still put pressure on the valve and act properly like a spring should! 

My 5c on the matter. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[rickyhils]

Step-a-toe.    Left side cam was running not as quiet as right side and I wanted to know why. That was likely an over concern on my part due to my lack of experience. So, I double checked the oil paths and the rocker/cam lobe surfaces. All good there. And, while I was there, I wanted to be sure that the four valves ran smoothly and were not bent. And it was so difficult to remove the springs [while in car] that I stopped after the first one.   

That same exhaust valve at cyl #2 was hung open three weeks ago because the rocker was not aligned. And that same valve appears to sit lower than the other three, as my other post shows. After verifying that the valve was not bent I put the spring back on. Not til then did I see the difference in the top/bottom coil ends.

 

[Step-a-toe]

Aha, well spotted. And good on you for continuing with the search. The mystery continues to involve #2 , and you say the exhaust valve tip sits lower than the others, not higher...

I remembered it sitting higher , but mind is on other things 

Years ago we had a guy moving between extremes of our continent with a misbehaving EA82T and had been to a few Subie experts. From memory he finally gave up, parting at least the engine out.

I bought the heads and found the intermittent problem.

I should stop here and list a GoFundMe account to share the repair costs before revealing

One valve guide had worn oddly giving the valve opportunity to really upset performance by getting stuck open at an angle, from time to time....and I might have just worked out why my EA82M ™ has odd low power under certain circumstances ! It has the heads with K-line insert used to repair the problem !

You are not chasing anything specific now are you ?

Just inspecting your work.....

Edited June 6, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[rickyhils]

  And good on you for continuing with the search. 

I am not a perfectionist where "nothing makes me happy" but I want a GOOD running reliable car, that's all. I have little experience (only some) but the learning is a rich experience, ESPECIALLY when I do the job done right. But the lack of good training can easily lead to perhaps "getting lucky" and becoming over confident the next time.

   you say the exhaust valve tip sits lower than the others, not higher... I remembered it sitting higher , but mind is on other things 

Have reposted a pic here. * Note- This pic was before I removed that valve spring and subsequently installed it upside down. 

I should stop here and list a GoFundMe account to share the repair costs before revealing

And then we find out who really are our friends. (ha ha)

 It has the heads with K-line insert used to repair the problem !

After removing that valve spring I saw that it has new valve guides, with no crusty or cooked appearance at all. (Yay!) And there was a large washer (brass?) at the very bottom, that had a "This Side Out" stamped on one side. At least I put THAT back in correctly.(Pat myself on the back.)  But it was when I became very frustrated at getting those "keepers" back in (engine is sideways while in the car. (Loads of fun!) that my mind failed to consider ALL aspects of proper spring installation. And I know that I would have quickly sussed out those spring coil groupings if I had been more patient.

Good to hear car talk from "down under".  ha ha ha

Edited June 7, 2020 by rickyhils
spelling, also detail on pic

[Rampage]

In this pic you posted, the keys (keepers) look recessed in the spring retainer. What do the other three look like? Flush or recessed.

If the hole in the retainer is enlarged only a tiny bit, the retainer will move up on the keys.

[rickyhils]

I have already put the cam back on. All I recall is that the keepers on the others looked the same.

Latest is that car now idles very rough. Sound location indicates a problem still with that left cam. As the overall rebuild otherwise is good on the bottom end and the Right cam, I will zero in on that left cam. I am casually considering the POSSIBLE option of taking off the left head and 100% sorting out why that #2 Exhaust valve sits low. Maybe the valve seat grind is not the same on that head? I am a total newbie here. As well I will check the entire cam lobe lift specs.

And, if the decision is made to FINALLY address all issues by removing the left head, that will make things much much easier overall. I have experience of only two times removing the head in the old engine while it was in the car. [12 years and 160k milers ago]   Getting things sorted out now is my game plan. And I have a Felpro permatorque gasket to throw on.

 

[el_freddo]

Could the issue be a replacement valve that is slightly different to the other remaining (possibly factory) units? Thus sitting lower or higher than the others? 

Cheers 

Bennie

[rickyhils]

Rampage.  As I posted three weeks ago, the #2 exhaust valve was hung open due to a misaligned rocker. Compression test read ZERO on #2 cyl. 

Consideration to remove the left head is still very much on the table. Valves are the primary question here.  And I am confidant that the result will be a good running rebuilt engine.  AND, I will have another chance to Not put the valve springs in upside down. ha ha ha 

[rickyhils]

I just now did a compression test

Cyl#1   120 psi

#3       `130 psi

#2       150 psi

#4         ZERO.

Other than cyl # 4 at zero, I don't see those wide variances in compression as a particularly good thing.

 

Three weeks ago it was #2 exhaust valve suck open. I can see myself undoing the left head bolts right now. ha ha ha

[rickyhils]

Re: Checking left head valves. If removal of left head is a given, then it is only sensible to check BOTH L+R heads. Sure, an extra 5 hours for me, but "Inquiring minds want to know."

OR should I just put a bottle of Rislone in the crank case and let it idle for 30 minutes?  (JUST KIDDING )

[rickyhils]

7 hours ago, Step-a-toe said:

Step-a-toe

You are not chasing anything specific now are you ?

Well, I don't have any faith in that left cam/valve setup OR the right side cam setup either. Until that rocker caused the stuck exhaust valve I had not been in there at all. So, trouble was afoot before I had touched anything.

 

[Step-a-toe]

In here now, thought you said you had put spring in upside down. This was since you had the rocker not wanting to play ball?

And editing now I have read your latest explanation.

When you pass the five month mark, I shall hand my determination-with-EA82 award over to you Ricky

My Mazda 1300 TC determination trophy was back in 1989.....went through four engine tear downs to get it right. I was already king of brown window silicone for gaskets. 

First, replace missing little end bush

New noise, so tear down to replace other three

No difference by second rebuild

Head off only this time to find valve seat loose, tried an amazing epoxy glue that worked for one drive

Fourth time, fourth head gasket, I centre punch marked it in place . Bingo !!

Edited June 7, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[rickyhils]

Bennie,

The incorrigible inner-mechanic in me wants to investigate exactly that possibility of some incorrect valves.

 

[Step-a-toe]

In my mind's eye I see picture of a line of installed valves, their tips all being checked for how flush they are in comparison with each other, all at once, with a steel rule.

If you do this and measure the difference and tell us all, someone may pipe up. I would not expect HVLA to take up the slack for a big difference such as what we think we saw in previous pics

[rickyhils]

Step-a-toe

Am I straying a bit on the topics here? Too many offshoot issues. Anyway, the Upside Down Spring issue arose during the course of assessing why the left cam has been a bit of a headache since I first fired up this rebuilt. Could well be [or at least I suspect] that a tear down of the valves is in order to see what is really going on.

[Step-a-toe]

Yep, and on your comp readings I don't like #4 zero

When I do mine I pull fuel supply fuse and ignition fuse.

Foot flat to floor so no choke of air pathway.

Sometimes do cold because won't go at all

Prefer to do at op temp

Like to use fuel line length to remove and install plug as a tool, other than initial loosen and final tighten

 

Don't worry about straying, it is all same issue really.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[Step-a-toe]

Who votes heads off, tear down, maybe off to machine shop for best opinion?

Maybe with serviced heads, new gaskets you still have suspect compression results. Is it worth the experience and cost??

Edited June 7, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[rickyhils]

Step-a-toe-   

Got it. Your example of a steel rule with proper measurements is a good way to present what might be useful here. That being said, I am inclined to do a partial tear down and have the valves out to measure them. And look at how the valve seats measure up. All else seems ok.

[rickyhils]

Step-a-toe

When you pass the five month mark, I shall hand my determination-with-EA82 award over to you Ricky

Now you may have just convinced me to junk my Loyale and scout around for a Mazda 1300 TC. (I wonder if it would pass California smog?)

This is not any argument from me as I see full well your point. And what I have is a far cry from a factory assembly in Japan 30 years ago. I liked your Mazda story as it rings true in all of us in our own way.

Now, the comp ranges were too varied. Then even with Cyl#4 up and running and valves good to go, I could possibly have a rough idle due to uneven compression?

[idosubaru]

Good eye. 

Besides problematic #4, the others are within 20% spec, barely.  I wouldn’t consider those numbers a big deal until you redid the test and confirmed excellent starter amperage availability throughout the entire test (was the lowest reading done last with a weakening battery?) and throttle body and plate fully opened to ambient air.  I’d probably test those low cylinders a couple more times.  
 

if the engine hasnt been run much is there a chance of rings and HLAs freeing up and settling into nominal ops after driving 1,000 km? 

[idosubaru]

On 6/5/2020 at 9:51 PM, ferp420 said:

pull the spark plug stuff as much string in to the cylinder as posable  ring the cylinder up as close to top dead center as posable ive compressed the springs by hand many times

With the engine in the car?  I’ve done most Subaru springs by hand, but wasn’t able to with the engine in the car. What do you use to compress the springs when it’s in the car?  Wish I could meet up at your favorite watering hole and ask, I still have this car in my driveway!

[rickyhils]

Whether it is worth the effort and cost - 

The bottom end runs and sounds good. Yes, I need to ensure a reliable compression test such as allowing for amperage change - opening the throttle body - test at op temp. FWIW- a few days ago I got approx 130 125 130 135. So, for sure, I need to learn more about consistent comp testing.

There is a built in ceiling as to how far I can or will go on this. Yes, I can readily take off the left side head and get the valves out to have a look. I will assume for now that we can locate the "What and Why" of the problem. I'll post some realistic measurements and maybe a few pics on here. If a satisfactory improvement is made and the engine shows consistent reliability then GOOD. But if problem with bottom end surfaces then I will stop as I am not capable at that point.