Yukon Cornelius Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) So.... I'm a little embarrassed I couldn't figure this out in front of my son. Being a 20 year tech there's little I haven't seen. Anyways. 86 Brat w/ea81. Was a barn find and ran ok'ish. Cleaned fuel system of rusting and ditched the Hitachi carb. All vacuum accessories are deleted except vacuum advance. During the install of the weber system it runs ok'ish still just out of the box. While tuning starting with the timing set I found I cant see the timing marks. So, using my timing light I tuned the light to see how far it was advanced and found 40 degrees retarded. Vacuum advance is operational but disconnected for timing set. Inspected under cap and found button is past cyl one at TDC. Adjusted to zero without bolt in distance holder and found poor running and had to hold throttle open. Had to remove distributor to set back to zero. Will not start while set to zero degrees. No vacuum leaks. Compression is not awesome but acceptable at 150psi dead cold on all cylinders. I thought maybe cam timing cause someone has been in the engine recently. So I went as far as checking the timing mark on crank(no small feat). Dead on. Timing mark in the one counter sink hole in the crank. It's no where near TDC, that's strange but whatever. Please offer input. Thanks in advance.(hehehe) Edited June 12, 2020 by Yukon Cornelius Speeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Which cylinder are you using as "number one"? GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Timing marks are on the flywheel for EA81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 7 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said: Which cylinder are you using as "number one"? GD Passengers side front is cyl#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Step-a-toe said: Timing marks are on the flywheel for EA81 Yes they are. Confirmed the fly wheel is correct with an old used engine I had sitting around. Timing Mark's are the same and fly wheel only goes one way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferp420 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) is it posable the distributer is 180° out ive had issues like that on vws before Edited June 12, 2020 by ferp420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 34 minutes ago, ferp420 said: is it posable the distributer is 180° out ive had issues like that on vws before Checked this. Timing was out one tooth to allow for 40 degrees retarded timing. Set distributors in correct position. Tdc at cylinder one on distributor. Wont start. Retard timing with out holder bolt and it starts and runs but poorly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 While engine was out found valves were a little tight. The worst was cylinder 2. Near .001in. Cold compression was ok'ish. Maybe when hot and valves expand it was causing issue. But that doesn't explain the timing issue. Usually advanced timing causes better operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferp420 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 are you sure #1 plug on the dizy is realy were #1 plug should be maybe the fireing order is a hole off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) Something is entirely wrong about your measurement process or your timing marks, etc. The engine wouldn't run 40 degrees retarded. If you can't get an accurate reading on the marks and timing light then just set it to wherever it runs, dial it in to a 750 RPM idle and advance the distributor till you get some pinging on heavy load with premium then back it off a couple degrees and send it. First rule of tuning - give the engine what it wants. The actual number is unimportant. The engine wants what it wants and THE ENGINE doesn't care about the number. GD Edited June 12, 2020 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Well put GD, but I can see an inquisitive mind trying to teach his son OP has mentioned his timing marks are on the crank pulley, which is why I mentioned flywheel. A comment reply indicating he had noted this but has not said he is getting indications from flywheel yet. I want to hear how he finds #1 TDC and see a pic of rotor button at this point and say a mark where #1 lead lines up on outskirts of dizzy housing. Another question is what grade of fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 Loving all the help I'm getting here. Thanks fellas. Was able to confirm timing flywheel timing Mark's with a old ea81 in the shop. Its crust old and original but it confirmed the Mark's and bolt pattern. I got cylinder one at TDC by piston position. The distributor rotor was past cylinder one also confirming timing Mark's. But , vehicle ran. Not well but running. Now, I did find the valves extremely tight while the engine was out. I'm talking .001in. Who ever did what ever the last work on the engine was definitely questionable. So I want to give the engine what it wants. But it wanting the timing to be so far off is telling me there is a issue that needs addressed. TDC in the distributor is found by flywheel mark 0° and locating cylinder one in the distributor. Confirming the button is centered at the contact on the cap. That being done it runs poorly if at all. Retard timing and it starts and runs. Engine will be going back in this weekend due to confirmation of normal mechanical condition found. After ill start from scratch and continue with the normal diag procedure. I find sometimes it help to start from the beginning. I will report my finding. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferp420 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 it still sounds like its firing on the wrong stroke have you pulled the valve cover to check the valves to varify its on the compresion stroke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 5 hours ago, ferp420 said: it still sounds like its firing on the wrong stroke have you pulled the valve cover to check the valves to varify its on the compresion stroke My thoughts too. Also something not stated ( I don't think) until OP last post is engine is in bench test condition as photo suggests ? So hasn't been driven in order to be able to say runs well. On valve clearances, I have set solids to factory 10 and 12 thou once only, and got a chaff cutter. My cams always a sports grind so may have different spec needs to factory. I ended up setting at operating temperature to four thou. for all. 500,000 km worth on two EA81 so done nothing wrong. A hydraulic lifter engine will have finer tolerance as OP has found. Is it hydraulic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 1 3 2 4 ?? Not 1342? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 Yes 1324 not 1342. Its strange to me being a long time honda tech. But was tested at 1324. Solid lifters. . I did test drive and confirm weak engine performance before replacing the Hitachi carb for weber.. and I confirm TDC cylinder one is after the compression stroke . I do believe it is something not identified yet. Still moving on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 Keep in mind it was test driven with the distributor one tooth off to hit 40 deg retarded and be bolted down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Aha, road tested. and electronic dizzy not a points one going by its year model? I forget this detail of starting an EA81 after dizzy removal so can't help with where the rotor normally points, or the four pointed doo dad on the shaft, but my general rule of thumb is to shift from TDC to timing mark of 8° and the doo dad fin lines up with its trigger points, rotor points to or either side of contact point for it in cap. EA81 only have the clearest of marking on flywheel, goes on one way only. I am curious also. I have run an NA EA82 with 22° of initial advance but cannot fathom 40° retarded working at all Keep us up to date Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 Me either. Going back in tomorrow and stating over again. Maybe I missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Anyways, the boys getting some good knowledge here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 22, 2020 Author Share Posted June 22, 2020 Engine back in confirmed flywheel only fits only one way and is same as another original I have. While the engine was out i found all valves adjusted too tight. Most likely The reason it ran like spoob at TDC. Reinstalled engine set distributor by tdc sensor in distributor. Runs normal. Had a couple issues with exhaust studs stripping out among others. Bout to adjust the new Weber. Thanks for all the help fellas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 now we are gonna have another testimonial that his EA81 goes so much better after putting a Weber on it ( among doing a few other things) Good work and thanks for ending the story, so far. Once had a workmate in office environment theorising about so many possibilities, spent unnecessarily when all it was...tight valves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Thanks Step a toe, already ran into another issue. Intermittent spark. Some time won't start. Tested coil at near 2 ohms primary and 9Kohms secondary with no spark. Them it just starts working again. I'm bringing my meter home to test the distributor today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 It sounds typical of the module as it croaks. They are plentiful and cheap enough. Shared with late 70s, early 80s Honda and quite a few other makes from memory, and early or maybe all fwd carby EA81. If you know how to test the module between dead and alive please share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 Tuen it over and check for dwell at the ignition control. It was really common on Honda's. We delt with that a lot in the 90's. They were called ignitors or ICM's(ignition control modules). This is a little different as when ignitors quit they were straight dead. Coils would commonly cause intermittent issues when hot due to insulation breakdown. You could pull it apart and see the casing. Still learning the EA81's. It been fun and the boy is learning a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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