The Cycle Guy Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I've got an 86 XT, MPFI 5 speed that sat for 20 years. Recently I replaced timing belts, put it together and it runs fine. Went to get smog checked and failed. The sticker under hood specifies timing 6 degrees BTDC with vacuum disconnected. Car runs well but timing light (#1 cyl) shows 12 degrees after TDC with vacuum hoses connected and green connector disconnected. Then I disconnect and plug vacuum hoses on distributor, and the car won't run at all. I've watched the Miles Fox videos and have the service manual. I've removed & reinstalled the distributor several times to try to advance the timing, but there is only 1 distributor position where the car will run at all. I've triple checked, the center marks on flywheel are on the mark when the drivers side (USA) cam is straight up, and passenger side cam is straight down. I swear I've done everything by the book, but I can't get it to 6 degrees BTDC and have the car run. What am I doing wrong? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 Update! Half an hour after I posted this, the forum juju must've kicked in and I got it running at 6 degrees BTDC with the vacuum line disconnected. However it's not running smoothly. I'm still worried that it won't pass smog if its running roughly. Some other info - recently I gave the flapper type mass airflow sensor a good cleaning- it needed it. I also replaced all injectors, cleaned gas tank and lines, replaced fuel pump and filter. Any suggestions to make it run smoother? Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee2 Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) Quote "sat for 20 years" --clean , sharpen and regap the spark plugs maybe replace plug wires --check air filter and intake for mouse denris --check and clean contacts on distributor --check for vacuum leaks Edited June 15, 2020 by Dee2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Thank you, all good ideas. The car runs like crap at 6 degrees BTDC, but it runs well when I set distributor to 10 degrees after TDC. Seems odd to me. Any clues what's going on? Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Are you sure you’ve got your Before and after TDC the right way around? The Hotwire AFM MPFI needs 20deg BTDC static (green test plugs connected under the dash), this could be different for the flapper and vac advanced MPFI engine management. You might also need to connect some test connectors for dizzy timing changes. A new catalytic converter would be a good investment for smog, as would a new O2 sensor too. O2 sensors go bad and don’t always throw a code or show a CEL. Cheers Bennie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) With the MPFi and green plugs connected or disconnected, is there a difference in the timing? Reading off the flywheel? With the flapper style should be a three plug ecu and no wire connector to connect/ disconnect surely when setting timing ? All the timing is mechanical and vacuum surely ? Or have you got flapper afm, optical dizzy and four plug ecu? Think only time I altered the green plugs was for an error scan reading red led on ECU Edited June 16, 2020 by Step-a-toe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 OK compression test time egr functioning and clean inside? then what about all the PCV tubes n breathers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 On 6/14/2020 at 11:51 PM, el_freddo said: Are you sure you’ve got your Before and after TDC the right way around? The Hotwire AFM MPFI needs 20deg BTDC static (green test plugs connected under the dash), this could be different for the flapper and vac advanced MPFI engine management. You might also need to connect some test connectors for dizzy timing changes. A new catalytic converter would be a good investment for smog, as would a new O2 sensor too. O2 sensors go bad and don’t always throw a code or show a CEL. Cheers Bennie yeah, pretty sure I've got B and A TDC correct. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 19 hours ago, Step-a-toe said: With the MPFi and green plugs connected or disconnected, is there a difference in the timing? Reading off the flywheel? With the flapper style should be a three plug ecu and no wire connector to connect/ disconnect surely when setting timing ? All the timing is mechanical and vacuum surely ? Or have you got flapper afm, optical dizzy and four plug ecu? Think only time I altered the green plugs was for an error scan reading red led on ECU no difference if green connector is connected or not. Yes reading timing marks on flywheel. Sorry I don't understand your 3rd question. Yes, timing is mechanical and vacuum as far as I know it has flapper type MAF sensor. I don't know what an optical distributor is, and I don't know if it's a 4 plug ECU Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Ok. Don't know EGR, or don't know why I suggested it? Not sure myself I have had issue with innards chocked With carbon, valve stuck open causing a run problem but not a timing problem Ok, flapper so should be vac can on side of dizzy so total timing and advance control via dizzy so does not need any electrical plugs changed. Just vac hose off dizzy and plugged so no vac leaks Trying to think here on positions of things as I have applied to get things started. On my flapper EA82T I have Hitachi distributor and non turbo using a carb dizzy that is Denso - in same car. In the same set flywheel position at 20°BTDC, the rotor button points squarely at the firewall for the Hitachi, call it 12 o'clock and the trigger parts aligned almost, think I slide @ feeler gauge between two components Yet, with NA engine at 20° the Denso rotor points more about 2 o'clock position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) Optical dizzy has no spring load feel if you turn rotor one way or other against fix position and from memory a metal cover plate below rotor so you see nothing else. Has no vac can on side either Your ecu is under parcel shelf at rear seen by popping boot trunk lid and stuffing small child in to inspect number of plugs and ecu part numbers Edited June 17, 2020 by Step-a-toe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Step-a-toe said: Ok. Don't know EGR, or don't know why I suggested it? Not sure myself I have had issue with innards chocked With carbon, valve stuck open causing a run problem but not a timing problem Ok, flapper so should be vac can on side of dizzy so total timing and advance control via dizzy so does not need any electrical plugs changed. Just vac hose off dizzy and plugged so no vac leaks Trying to think here on positions of things as I have applied to get things started. On my flapper EA82T I have Hitachi distributor and non turbo using a carb dizzy that is Denso - in same car. In the same set flywheel position at 20°BTDC, the rotor button points squarely at the firewall for the Hitachi, call it 12 o'clock and the trigger parts aligned almost, think I slide @ feeler gauge between two components Yet, with NA engine at 20° the Denso rotor points more about 2 o'clock position Sorry I didn't see your EGR post. Thanks for that. I have not checked EGR and PCV tubes. I'll give that a try. The distributor does not have an electrical connection, but it does have 2 vacuum lines going to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Ok , this sounds just like the setup I have seen on NA XT downunder. I have had much same but turbo myself to tinker with ...the dizzy is not one I have had but suspect it is two wire, two pin ignition module under the cap being non turbo fwd. I could be wrong. Just may also help for the collective us to know Hitachi or Denso dizzy and what is inside cap module wise. Worldwide there was 20 different ECU part numbers for EA82, and I have had four very different distributors, know yours to be a fifth.... They may physically sit different at TDC or timing marks , to each other ....I am thinking photo time....you set at #1 TDC or maybe 10° BTDC and take photo of dizzy rotor , cap removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Better look harder at dizzy as it must have an electrical connection ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 And just for fun Cycle Guy, one of my EA82 I dubbed EA82M for Mongrel is carb block, turbo MPFi heads, cams, flat intake manifold as opposed to spider intake, carby dizzy and fuelled by Impco propane only - idles and runs best for me set at 22° BTDC instead of 6 or 8 !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cycle Guy Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, Step-a-toe said: Better look harder at dizzy as it must have an electrical connection ! You're right, there's an electrical wire. Here's a picture of the distributor with the flywheel at 0 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Aha, Denso , looks just like the spring clip retained cap style on my 87 carbed touring wagon. Seen them expressed as twin module, and here I was thinking MPFi governs that they have screw down cap ! Now another pic at 20° BTDC please! Just remembered my use of this dizzy is not in engine as I trialled Hitachi knock control set up before engine came out so I cannot show you comparison photo. Anyone running this Denso could do it though, any takers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Boy your LHD hill holders are close!! Would you say that at TDC the centre line of rotor is parallel with line of cam box, block etc? Hard to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Different dizzy - flapper style turbo Hitachi at 20° Looks about half between 12 and 1 When same dizzy as yours fitted, set at 20° BTDC was definitely closer to 2 position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydube Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) Timing is usually set with the RPM around 700. Like others have said, that is not an 86 distributor. 86 distributors may only last 50,000 miles. They don't make them anymore. With the timing tick indicator pointing at the center tick mark of the 3 tick mark grouping on the flywheel, the turbo disty rotor should point to about the 5 o'clock position, and be almost directly on top of the screw in the distributor, with the screws that hold the distributor to the engine in the center of their wear marks, if it was an 86 turbo XT. The firing order may be wrong. 1-3-2-4 Front right is #1, Rear right is #3, Front left is #2, Rear left is #4. 86 specs are 6 degrees at 700 rpm for MPFI non-turbo MT. For a turbo, it is 25 degrees BTDC at 700 rpm. Edited June 17, 2020 by scoobydube dug out manual 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 (edited) Scoobydude , you say cycle guys pic is not of an 86 dizzy but I get the feeling because all XT were MPFi they may have got different components to other EA82 models, or said in another way, the XT may have got some components earlier than other models? I have an 85,86 fwd carby non XT dizzy somewhere that is a small, single module with two pins so likely Hitachi, clip on cap The first XT I kept revisiting the idea to buy had the twin vac cans on the dizzy, think it was ND (Nippon Denso) pretty sure it was the 85&86 models. Just could not fathom the poor state it was in, greedy wrecker wanted too much for it , I kept going back to look in wonderment , wrecker kept revaluing it due to my interest i am confused with your 5 clock position !! Edited June 17, 2020 by Step-a-toe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 14 hours ago, scoobydube said: Timing is usually set with the RPM around 700. Like others have said, that is not an 86 distributor. 86 distributors may only last 50,000 miles. They don't make them anymore. With the timing tick indicator pointing at the center tick mark of the 3 tick mark grouping on the flywheel, the turbo disty rotor should point to about the 5 o'clock position, and be almost directly on top of the screw in the distributor, with the screws that hold the distributor to the engine in the center of their wear marks, if it was an 86 turbo XT. The firing order may be wrong. 1-3-2-4 Front right is #1, Rear right is #3, Front left is #2, Rear left is #4. 86 specs are 6 degrees at 700 rpm for MPFI non-turbo MT. For a turbo, it is 25 degrees BTDC at 700 rpm. My 85,86 FSM has a full page sketch of a ND dizzy that looks just like yours in the photo Cycle Guy Part number top left likely to be found on green foil sticker under 5 mm of black crud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydube Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 On 6/17/2020 at 3:41 PM, Step-a-toe said: Scoobydude , you say cycle guys pic is not of an 86 dizzy but I get the feeling because all XT were MPFi they may have got different components to other EA82 models, or said in another way, the XT may have got some components earlier than other models? I have an 85,86 fwd carby non XT dizzy somewhere that is a small, single module with two pins so likely Hitachi, clip on cap The first XT I kept revisiting the idea to buy had the twin vac cans on the dizzy, think it was ND (Nippon Denso) pretty sure it was the 85&86 models. Just could not fathom the poor state it was in, greedy wrecker wanted too much for it , I kept going back to look in wonderment , wrecker kept revaluing it due to my interest i am confused with your 5 clock position !! The distributor that you have in your photos, appears to be for an 85-86 turbo GL10 because it has 4 pins to attach the wires. It should say 22100AA221 on the body of the distributor. In my experience, all distributor extraction and reinstalling, should be done with the flywheel tick mark indicator, centered on the middle of the three ticks on the flywheel. The photo of your distributor does not appear to have the flywheel set in that position so it is not easy to compare the rotor position with anything else. However, with the 12 o'clock position being towards the rear of the car, you can see on your distributor, the top of a screw at the 5 o'clock position. If you car is a turbo, then the rotor should point almost exactly toward the 5 o'clock screw head, when the the distributor is installed AND with the distributor base screws that ultimately adjust the timing, centered in the wear marks at the base attachment of the distributor. Which the base screws appear to be set in the wear marks in your photo. I have used 86 XT turbo distributors in my GL10. It is exactly the same as in the GL10 turbo wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydube Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) On 6/17/2020 at 10:21 PM, Step-a-toe said: My 85,86 FSM has a full page sketch of a ND dizzy that looks just like yours in the photo Cycle Guy Part number top left likely to be found on green foil sticker under 5 mm of black crud This photo appears to be for an 87 model year. It does not appear to be a Subaru service manual. Edited June 19, 2020 by scoobydube Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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