Outback Vs. CR-v offroad?

[Tres]

Greetings,

First post. So A buddy in high school had a cherry 87ish Suby 4x4 wagon. I always loved the thing. Tried to buy it from him several times. That was long ago.

Currently I'm vehicle shopping due to mine being totaled and now with the covid crunch, fuel economy trumps all in my next purchase.

But Being a nature lover and adventure guy, I just can't stand the thought of not having at least a smart AWD system in my next ride, at minimum. And I need to be able to stretch out and sleep in the thing (I'm 5'10".)

I've narrowed it down to an outback, or CR-v.  On my budget I'm likely limited to buying something from the 1999 to 2004ish range, if I'm to leave extra money for a lift kit for the new to me vehicle.

 

Pro's and cons fo the two regarding to how well the AWD systems work in mud and rough and is either long enough to sleep in?  I'm going to check some in person tomorrow with my handy tape measure.

 

I really appreciate the help.

Tres

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tres

[montana tom]

I'm 5' 11" in a 2000-04 outback wagon. With seats laid flat, I can sleep on the diagonal. Head up behind drivers seat .  Its not fun but it dry and warmer than on the ground. 

The awd system is awesome, will get you anyplace you need to be.    I would not bother trying to raise one, they shouldn't need it.

Of course I can't recommend a Honda CR-v  here on the Subaru forum... would be a sacrilege !

[carfreak85]

My vote for a cheap, modern Subaru would be a 98-02 Forester, pick your flavor of transmission.  I'm normally a MT kind of guy, but I'll happily take a 4EAT for off-roading and driving to the ski lodge.

[Numbchux]

I've slept in my '00 and '04 a couple times. With the seats folded flat (rear seat bottom flipped forward, pretty big help for getting out of the rear side doors), cars101 says there's 5'8" of cargo length. When my wife and I slept back there on our UP trip, I could not stretch out (not a big deal, as I'm a side sleeper anyway). Without folding the seat completely flat, you probably get about , but the front is elevated. This makes getting out those side doors very difficult, and would not really be possible with another person in the car. But, with a modification to the rear gate to open it from the inside, that would be sweet.

Here was the latter setup (with truckbedz air mattress):

2018-10-15_02-49-50 by Numbchux, on Flickr

 

The CRV has a 10" shorter overall length (according to wikipedia)...no hopeful for interior space. Forester is similar.

 

 

The BE/BH Outbacks come with 3 different AWD systems. The most common, MPT AWD on the 4EAT transmissions is very FWD biased, and can send power to the rear as needed (to a point). This is controlled by the TCU, and pretty good. It can also be easily modded to "lock" (still not 100%, but better) with a little wiring and a switch.

The manual transmissions are simple, 50/50 mechanical differential with a viscous LSD. The LSD tends to get tired over the years, but there's a company in Europe that can rebuild them, and even make them stronger.

The VDC trim cars have VTD AWD, which is a 50/50 mechanical AWD AND electronically controlled clutches. Downside is these cars come with stability control, which limits the fun a bit. But the ABS isn't ridiculously intrusive.

The cold weather package (heated seats, mirrors, windshield. An option on the early ones and standard on the later ones) on the non-VDC models came with a rear viscous LSD as well. These LSDs aren't very strong, but every little bit helps. Unless you plan to use the torq masters locker, in which case you'll need an open diff.

 

I have a '00 5MT with cold weather, and a '04 VDC. I've had them both off the beaten path, and they do fantastically. As always, though, a torque converter gives you so much more control at slow speed (we usually take the '04). I don't even want to talk about having a clutch offroad unless you have at LEAST 100:1 crawl ratio, preferrably more like 200:1 (best combination using Subaru parts is about 25:1).

 

The CRVs have an AWD very similar to the Subaru MPT system (FWD biased), but just uses a viscous coupler to send power to the rear. The Honda Element rear diff is a direct swap, and has a stronger coupler.

[carfreak85]

I guess I should mention that when we camp with the Forester I remove the rear seat and cargo area floor and install a custom sleeping platform that I actually fit onto (6'1").  You have to slide the front seats all the way forward, recline them forwards to the dash, then flip out the headrests for the sleeping platform.  Custom cut mattress topper foam (4 -in. thick) and custom cut window covers.

Wish I had some photos handy...

[Tres]

I sincerely appreciate everyone for the time that took to offer me such great insight. Awesome. Cool Crew here.

Numbchux, Do you know off the top of your head what year outbacks do *not* have the FWD bias, save for anything newer than a '06 as that will very likely be out of my budget. Or if it makes it easier, I'm guessing a '98 to maybe '06 might be

walletable for me, if you can reccomend something between those years that are not FWD biased.

 

Huge thanks again everyone!

-Tres

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Tres

[Numbchux]

22 hours ago, Numbchux said:

The manual transmissions are simple, 50/50 mechanical differential with a viscous LSD. The LSD tends to get tired over the years, but there's a company in Europe that can rebuild them, and even make them stronger.

The VDC trim cars have VTD AWD, which is a 50/50 mechanical AWD AND electronically controlled clutches. Downside is these cars come with stability control, which limits the fun a bit. But the ABS isn't ridiculously intrusive.

I don't know the full list of cars that have VTD. '01-'04 Outback VDC models definitely did. I think some WRXs, and almost anything with a 5EAT.

Or, anything with a manual transmission.

[el_freddo]

In regards to sleeping length, a false floor to raise you above the folded forward seat base will give you more horizontal space but at the expense of vertical space. This can also provide some neat storage under the bed in the cargo and rear seat spaces. 

If you’re really handy, you could make a tent setup off the rear tailgate when it’s open - google Ute swag for ideas on that one  

Cheers 

Bennie

[heartless]

On 6/24/2020 at 6:19 PM, Tres said:

I sincerely appreciate everyone for the time that took to offer me such great insight. Awesome. Cool Crew here.

Numbchux, Do you know off the top of your head what year outbacks do *not* have the FWD bias, save for anything newer than a '06 as that will very likely be out of my budget. Or if it makes it easier, I'm guessing a '98 to maybe '06 might be

walletable for me, if you can reccomend something between those years that are not FWD biased.

 

Huge thanks again everyone!

-Tres

 

ALL Subarus will be FWD biased - you are asking for something that does not exist.

[carfreak85]

VDC-equipped have a native 50:50 split that can bias more torque rearwards, they are not FWD-biased.

[Numbchux]

33 minutes ago, heartless said:

ALL Subarus will be FWD biased - you are asking for something that does not exist.

false

[idosubaru]

On 6/25/2020 at 9:17 AM, Numbchux said:

I don't know the full list of cars that have VTD. '01-'04 Outback VDC models definitely did. I think some WRXs, and almost anything with a 5EAT.

Or, anything with a manual transmission.

people also convert normal subaru MPT trans to VTD by swapping the rear extension housing and guts.  i don't know anything about it except that it's a rather straight forward swap mechnically, but I don't know how the controls then work out.

[el_freddo]

11 hours ago, heartless said:

ALL Subarus will be FWD biased - you are asking for something that does not exist.

 

10 hours ago, Numbchux said:

false

Agreed - false

Auto has the front drive from the auto box “fixed” - it can’t change. The rear drive is what’s manipulated to get all wheel drive. If the front starts to slip, power is sent to the rear wheels.

If the mechanism for drive to the rear is worn out, you’ll just get front wheel spin and little to no action from the rear wheels. 

For the manual, the gearbox output goes through a differential which mechanically decides where the power goes. There is a small LSD on one of the outputs - I’m not sure if it’s the rear, front or both, so I won’t comment on that. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Edited June 27, 2020 by el_freddo

[GeneralDisorder]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:23 AM, heartless said:

ALL Subarus will be FWD biased - you are asking for something that does not exist.

Manual's are not. The power is equally likely to go to whichever end has the least traction. The 4kg VC in the center diff will allow some power to go to the end with traction. There is no "bias" except in the case of the STI 6 speed where you can manipulate the bias electrically - different center diff entirely though. 

Auto's have different drive mechanisms for front and rear. The front receives power all the time, and the computer decides to send up to 50% power to the rear by locking the transfer clutch. This signal is easily bypassed and with the flip of a switch (mod) you can lock them into full 4WD which essentially negates the front bias as the computer is removed from the equation.

Best value in a Subaru wheeler is a 99 to 04 Forester automatic. With preference for the 03/04 years. You can lift them and they have the most clearance in the strut spring perch. You can lock the auto into 4WD with a simple and inexpensive electrical switch mod. This will absolutely wheel circles around a CR-V. There are a LOT more "adventure" parts and accessories for the Forester than the CR-V. Honda isn't as well accepted in this type of market. Although the CR-V does have a more reliable engine overall. The resale value on both is very high compared to other vehicles of that era. 

Personally - my adventure vehicle is an 84 GMC Jimmy (Blazer). Because I want more off-road capability than any Subaru can provide. I want to throw 20 foot mud rooster tails with a 350 HP V8 and crawl over more aggressive terrain. Because fun. Yeah it gets 15 mpg but it's not my daily (well not usually), and has a 31 gallon tank so range isn't an issue. I paid $2500 with a blown engine and dropped in a $1500 drivetrain left over from a friend's LS swap. So $4500 for a short wheelbase with 35's..... and honestly it's simpler and more reliable than the Subaru's of similar vintage. And the fuel economy loss is well worth the fun factor.

GD

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by GeneralDisorder

[armedequation]

Yeah I dont know. I toying with the idea of selling my lifted loyale. Im kind of torn between that and an engine/drivetrain swap on it. I love it dont get me wrong but finding parts is starting to get harder and harder. 

Im toying with the following ideas

lifted baja

lifted crosstrek~ crawford performance inspired this idea 

https://crawfordperformance.com/pages/cpi-built-crosstrek

or just waiting and getting a new bronco when they come out. 

i wouldnt mind a first gen bronco either but its hard to find one that hasnt been changed or super rusty.

I had a 94 full size and that thing was a beast....our epic flood was what it took to put that thing out of commision. Now that gen averages about 10k with extremely high miles....crazyness

 

[GeneralDisorder]

1 hour ago, armedequation said:

Yeah I dont know. I toying with the idea of selling my lifted loyale. Im kind of torn between that and an engine/drivetrain swap on it. I love it dont get me wrong but finding parts is starting to get harder and harder. 

Im toying with the following ideas

lifted baja

lifted crosstrek~ crawford performance inspired this idea 

https://crawfordperformance.com/pages/cpi-built-crosstrek

or just waiting and getting a new bronco when they come out. 

i wouldnt mind a first gen bronco either but its hard to find one that hasnt been changed or super rusty.

I had a 94 full size and that thing was a beast....our epic flood was what it took to put that thing out of commision. Now that gen averages about 10k with extremely high miles....crazyness

 

Old Subaru's just aren't well supported with parts. Doubt that will change, and a 20 year old Forester is in the edge of being unsustainable also. Won't be long - 10 years or so - and parts will be basically unobtainable on the first gen Foresters also. 

Anything "new" like the Crosstrek or the upcoming Bronco are all in the 2005+ era of CANBUS module h*ll. Wherein the vehicle has between a dozen, and five dozen "modules" that exist on a serial CANBUS network. If any of those modules fail (lets say your "heated/cooled cup holder module" or your "ambient scent HVAC misting module") then it wreck's the CANBUS network termination or worse if the module goes nuts and pollutes the network with traffic that conflicts with important network packages, then the results will be unpredictable - anything from super-heating your iced coffee to a complete lock-out of the security immobilization system, etc. If you go "adventuring" in the back country where you may encounter conditions that are non-optimal for electronics..... you see where this is going. If you wouldn't throw your iPhone in a mud puddle then you likewise shouldn't throw your CANBUS networked vehicle in one either. As much as they are gussied up and appear to be "tough" I can assure you that none of the electronics in the carpeted, leather wrapped, climate controlled interior are in ANY WAY water proof or even resistant. Just look at what happens to cars that have been in floods. 

The farther back you go, the simpler the electrical systems are. My 84 GMC is a carbed 350 Vortec. It only needs +12v to the coil, and another +12v to operate the starter. In addition, the aftermarket support for the 73 to 87 square body GM's is exceptionally good. They are on the rise in value and NOW is the time to buy while prices are still reasonable. Not only can you get ANY part, you can get MOST critical drivetrain parts at ANY parts store and chances are it's in stock too. These are the qualifications that matter for an adventure vehicle. At least IMO. I've been stuck in the woods with broken vehicles. I've laid in the mud and gravel and filth fixing broken drivetrains. The less this happens the happier I am. The "amenities" that will fail on you and take out half the rest of the electrical system aren't worth the trouble. They will, however, ensure that the vehicle is obsolete in a timely manner for the manufacturer to sell you a new one. 

Also - to the OP and anyone else reading - if you can't/won't fix your vehicle when it breaks off road just stay home. Us that can don't want to fix your stupid mistakes and lack of preparedness. 

GD

Edited June 28, 2020 by GeneralDisorder