Cranks and wont start

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Edit: Issue wound up being a slipped timing belt. Thanks for the guidance. Wish my mechanic had listened rather than suggesting 450 dollars worth of parts that didnt need to be replaced. 

 

92 Loyale, 192k on the clock. Car was driving fine for roughly 90 miles. All of a sudden, she dies and refuses to start. Checked wire from coil to distributor, spark looked yellow so coil was pulled and replaced. No change. ECU reads code 11, crank angle sensor. Distributor was pulled and replaced with a junkyard part, no change. Covers are off and belts are intact, rotor spins and timing appears correct. Mechanic advised a faulty Ignition Control Module was to blame. Contacted wrecker and they pulled what they though was that part except they called it a Ignition Control Module Igniter. Installed and no change. Not sure if that is the correct part and neither is the mechanic. I'm in the weeds and am about to end my love affair with the Loyale. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Arthur Digby Sellers
New info

[john in KY]

Pull a spark plug and test for spark.  Just ground the body of the plug. May have a weak coil.

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

40 minutes ago, john in KY said:

Pull a spark plug and test for spark.  Just ground the body of the plug. May have a weak coil.

Coil was the first thing replaced. Rereading the post, that wasnt explicitly clear. Changed it to reflect that

Edited July 22, 2020 by Arthur Digby Sellers

[DaveT]

Spray carb cleaner down the throttle body for 1-2 seconds.  [Pull the boot]  Hold pedal at about half.  Crank.  Might take 10 seconds or so.  Does it fire or try to fire?

[Dee2]

2 hours ago, Arthur Digby Sellers said:

All of a sudden, she dies and refuses to start.

If it died suddenly with no other issues, it is likely an electrical problem.  If it did a little hurt dance and then died it is likely a fuel problem.

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

56 minutes ago, Dee2 said:

If it died suddenly with no other issues, it is likely an electrical problem.  If it did a little hurt dance and then died it is likely a fuel problem.

Died suddenly and has shown no willingness to change her tune. 

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

1 hour ago, DaveT said:

Spray carb cleaner down the throttle body for 1-2 seconds.  [Pull the boot]  Hold pedal at about half.  Crank.  Might take 10 seconds or so.  Does it fire or try to fire?

Will try this in the AM. Tried starting fluid in the throttle body, no change. 

[Dee2]

20 minutes ago, Arthur Digby Sellers said:

Died suddenly and has shown no willingness to change her tune. 

.....

Tried starting fluid in the throttle body, no change.

So, it's likely an electrical problem.  I would start at the plugs.  You may already have done this but do you have spark at the plugs ?

Edited July 22, 2020 by Dee2
...

[Step-a-toe]

I have seen weak, yellow spark and thought it not good enough as it was not blue

Not Subaru, but I was proved wrong, yellow spark, started and ran fine.

So I am assuming spfi ?

Start from basics often helps rule some things out

Have you been running covers off timing belts?

When you say timing belt position appears correct, how so?

I like to ask for comp test as step 1 after a few no goes diagnosing

Edited July 22, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

7 hours ago, Step-a-toe said:

I have seen weak, yellow spark and thought it not good enough as it was not blue

Not Subaru, but I was proved wrong, yellow spark, started and ran fine.

So I am assuming spfi ?

Start from basics often helps rule some things out

Have you been running covers off timing belts?

When you say timing belt position appears correct, how so?

I like to ask for comp test as step 1 after a few no goes diagnosing

Yes, SPFI.

Covers have been off the entire time I have owned the car. 

I did ask that he check compression, which said he did, more on that below. 

As far as the timing being correct and there being compression, this is according to the mechanic that has failed to diagnose the issue in the 13 days he has had the car, so the certitude of that information is somewhere between a soft maybe and completely worthless. He said visual inspection of the timing belt and pulleys indicated it is still timed right and he could hear that is has compression. Again, seems like a pretty low reliability way of making those determinations. 

Upon a more lengthy debriefing, he informed me that there is, infact, no spark at the contion between the wire and the plug. Additionally, it sounds like he was trying to tell me he suspects the ECU is bad, and was just calling it a Ignition Control Module due to ineptitude. After a visual inspection of the ignition control module igniter that the auto wrecker sold me for 350 dollars is a coil. 

 

Car is currently being towed to my home so that I can try my hand at it, rather than this guy throwing parts at it until something sticks. 

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

14 hours ago, Dee2 said:

So, it's likely an electrical problem.  I would start at the plugs.  You may already have done this but do you have spark at the plugs ?

I was under the impression it had spark which I was just informed is not the case.  

[Dee2]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Digby Sellers said:

no spark at the contion between the wire and the plug

So you have spark at the coil but not at the plug.  That would indicate a problem in your distributor.  When you get a chance open the distributor and have a looky-see to find out if anything is broken.  A failure of something inside could cause an engine to suddenly stop running.

Maybe the wire from the coil to the distributor is not seated and secure.  Check the continuity of that wire and if it is seated correctly.  Sometimes it's just a simple thing....

Edited July 22, 2020 by Dee2
add-ons.

[DaveT]

Possible - the contact at the top center of the cap broke / went missing.  Or the infamous screw that holds the spinning contact came out.  NOTE, one version uses a screw, the other the shaft is D shaped, so this can't happen.

[john in KY]

The coil bracket has to be grounded.  Make sure the bolts holding it to the body are tight. Also insure the wiring harness for that little transistor whatever riveted to the coil bracket is plugged in. 

[Yukon Cornelius]

So I've been having this issue as well. Try hammering on the distributor while some ones cranking. LOL. it seems to work for my Brat. Has a new ignitor and I still have this issue. Maybe I'll replace the distributor. 

[Step-a-toe]

Never had spfi but what I gather is that the distributor I have seen for one spfi is that they are not connected to ECU at all, not reliant upon for spark

Bring it in here and we should be able to get it going - called remote diagnostics

$350 ??

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Finally convinced the "mechanic" the T belt had slipped. Upon replacing those, issue was resolved. However, an ew issue has presented itself (seems to the de rigueur for this particular Loyale)

Car now idles inconsistently, starts fine but idle drops and dies if throttle is not applied to keep it around 1000 rpm. Put a bottle of injector cleaner in the tank and it seemed to help, issues is now intermittent rather than constant. Initially thought it might be a vacuum leak somewhere. Further research on the forum's also seems to indicate a possible ICA or TPS issue. Any guidance to help locate and resolve issue is greatly appreciated. Lmk if I should close this thread and start a new one 

[Dee2]

Glad to hear you found the problem.  If it was idling correctly before the belt slippage and the  belts were replaced, it's possible they are off by one tooth.  Double, triple  recheck positioning of cam sprockets.

[Step-a-toe]

Yep. Start with new thread, new descriptive title

The "mechanic" impressed owner worked it out?

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

On 8/5/2020 at 4:16 PM, Step-a-toe said:

Yep. Start with new thread, new descriptive title

The "mechanic" impressed owner worked it out?

Didn't maintain the relationship long enough to figure it out, although by the above post, I might have to swing by and have him check the cam sprocket position. Given my history with him, finding he did a job in a way that wasnt entirely correct would not be a massive shock.