Suspension Clunking - Diagnosis and Parts Options

[dirty_mech]

Hi guys,

2000 Legacy L Wagon 201k miles MT.  I've got a clunking noise when going over speed bumps, rough road, and sometimes when making tight turns and swerves.  I generally only hear it at lower speeds, not highways.  Replaced all four struts within the past 2 years.  Haven't replaced ball joints, end links, or anything else.  I've read past posts and found this one to be the closest to my symptoms:

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/109536-front-end-clunking-sound-over-small-bumps/?tab=comments#comment-919712

It seems the consensus is the most likely cause is bad ball joints or bad end links, or both.  I've heard you should replace the end links when doing the struts, which I didn't do.  I also have excessive wear on the inner edge of both front tires, which I heard is a symptom of bad ball joints.  I am currently thinking that I should replace the balljoints and the stabilizer bar end links on the front end.  I did a cursory inspection a few nights ago and noticed a greasy liquid on one of my control arm bushings.  That is probably nothing, but how likely is it that a control arm bushing has gone bad?  It looks like the only way to tell is to take the control arm off, as it's hard to inspect the bushings while installed...

Does anyone recommend I check or replace any other parts besides ball joints and end links?  Any tests I should do?  Any strong feelings about RockAuto replacement ball joints and end links vs OEM dealer parts?

Thanks for your help guys.  Photos of my control arm bushings and end links are below.

 

 

[idosubaru]

1. Tire wear is unrelated, it needs an aignment.  I would not assume they're related unless you have a *very compelling* reason to do so. 

2. pay particular attention while driving - you should be able to tell if a noticeable clunk is front, rear, left, or right.  Start there.  This will reduce your efforts by a minimum of 50% and probably 25%.

3. Get the car off the ground and pry hard with a digging bar or other very long/stout instrument (screw drivers are usually too light duty for hard to find play).  Pry on areas that will show play in the ball joint and control arm bushings/bolts. 

Grab the tie rods and pull them very hard back and forth - with all of your body weight (I mean while on the ground, don't hang from them like monkey bars). 

Same in the rear - pry everywhere and find the exact bushing that is loose and go from there. 

I wouldn't guess. Subaru ball joints and tie rods are robust and don't fail very often.  Sure they do, but at this age and mileage everything is equally suspect and it is almost certainly only *one part*, not both sides unless this thing was used and driven hard.

Edited September 10, 2020 by idosubaru

[Numbchux]

Clunking is frequently sway bar related, usually end links, but sometimes bushings as well. Super easy to tell....just disconnect one link, that will unload the bar across that axle and the noise should go away. If not, look elsewhere.

 

That rear control arm bushing is fluid filled, so the fluid is likely coming out of the bushing, and will likely only get worse. I believe those can be replaced independently from the control arm (it's certainly possible, I'm not sure if they're available seperately).

Edited September 10, 2020 by Numbchux

[brus brother]

worn bushing top mount on struts?

[brus brother]

Just remembered that on my 00 Legacy there was a TSB regarding clunking. BUT my clunking was from day 1 so likely not your issue,

Apparently they installed a damper in the PS lines that addressed the issue.

Edited September 10, 2020 by brus brother

[nvu]

Also unhook both endlinks and shake the swaybar.  If the sway bushings are worn they'll drop and rattle.  Just replace the endlinks now, you can do it with the car on the ground and some box wrenches.

The rear control arm bushing could leak, but they rarely go bad.  The smaller front one goes bad long before the rear one does.  Pry on it with a screwdriver, if you can move it easily with a hand screwdriver it's bad.

Edited September 10, 2020 by nvu

[dirty_mech]

I did a more thorough inspection tonight and took off the wheels.  In addition to the leaking rear control arm bushing, I found a bad ball joint and end link.  Two pictures of the end link and three of the ball joint are below, plus a picture of my good ball joint.  I also think all four of my rear link bushings are going bad in the rear suspension. I'll put pictures of that in a separate comment below.

idosubaru, I have had the car aligned a couple times in the past few years.  It drive straight.  But I did do the clutch last winter, so I might've disconnected alignment parts when I disconnected the half shafts.  I also haven't had an alignment since I changed the rear struts.   The tires are 4.5 years old with 40k miles on them.  I was hoping to get more use out of them, but would prefer to get alignment and tires done at the same time.  I might settle for having the alignment done after I change the suspension parts, or get new tires at the same time.  Haven't decided.

I pulled and pushed both tie rod ends; zero play.  Didn't need to do the lever test; I was able to visually identify the damaged parts.  See the photos below.  Thank you for your advice on the OEM Subaru parts; I won't change the good ball joint.  

numbchux you blew my mind, so those control arm bushings do have some greasy liquid in them!  So that one is bad and needs to be changed as well.  It is on my list. 

brus brother not likely, pretty sure I changed my strut top mounts when I did the struts.  but I will keep it in mind if the noise persists after changing the parts which I can visually confirm have failed.

nvu I will be replacing both end links in light of this most recent inspection.  I am as surprised as you are about the control arm rear bushing; the smaller front ones looked okay.

I fill my Subaru with crap and bomb up and down hills, so it doesn't surprise me that all these parts are going bad on my suspension.  Thanks for all of your help.  Hoping that my Hub Grappler kit will do for pressing in and out the bushings for the control arm and rear links. 

Now I must go buy parts.  Any opinions on OEM vs RockAuto for suspension parts like bushings, end links, and ball joints?

 

 

[dirty_mech]

Here's my rear link bushings. 

https://imgur.com/a/II94BTg

They look pretty chewed up and shot, yeah?  Common for these to go bad?

[Numbchux]

Quote out OEM Ball joints (don't forget, they don't come with castle nut, cotter pin, and pinch bolt). I've had pretty poor luck with aftermarket ones and I think the OEM ones are pretty reasonable. And wrecked knuckles changing them.

The nails in place of cotter pins would likely indicate an aftermarket ball joint, so keep an eye on them.

[idosubaru]

11 hours ago, dirty_mech said:

Here's my rear link bushings. 

https://imgur.com/a/II94BTg

They look pretty chewed up and shot, yeah?  Common for these to go bad?

I don't really see much in the way of bushings in that picture.  are you referring to that rubber bump stop? the rear alignment bolts and bushings typically squeak and clunk and you gotta torch them out and replace the bolts and nuts too.  maybe that's just the rust belt, but i don't see them in that picture. 

ball joints can function fine with torn boots, OEM units usually do and take a long time to develop any symptoms, they're very robust.  that being said - of course replace it because dirt is just going to keep getting in there and degrading the joint.  but it isn't necessarily a dead ringer for the issues you're chasing. 

definitely use OEM balljoints.  subaru ball joints are awesome, robust, and never fail.  can't say that about others and that is one part that can be catastrophic if it fails.  low chances but for $50 or less it's not the place to save a buck when you're already doing $500-$1,000 of labor savings on your own. 

[dirty_mech]

10 hours ago, idosubaru said:

I don't really see much in the way of bushings in that picture.

It's not a picture, it's an album.  Scroll down and you can see the other pictures.

And pardon me, they are my rear upper control arm bushings, for the lateral arm at the top of the wheel, which has the round plate for the cone shaped bumper attached to the frame.  That's why I included that first picture, to provide a zoomed out perspective.

Thanks for the tip on the ball joint.  I suspect it is still functioning more or less correctly.  The noise so far hardly qualifies as a nuisance, and there are no driveability issues. Ball joint is relatively cheap from the dealer so I will get it for sure.  About dealership parts, I know some are low quality.  For example, their blue oil filters are made by Fram and crap, as you can confirm here:
 

I really wonder what parts are higher quality and what parts aren't when it comes to the dealer sometimes.  Thank you for the input on ball joints, sound like they are the good stuff.

12 hours ago, Numbchux said:

Quote out OEM Ball joints (don't forget, they don't come with castle nut, cotter pin, and pinch bolt). I've had pretty poor luck with aftermarket ones and I think the OEM ones are pretty reasonable. And wrecked knuckles changing them.

The nails in place of cotter pins would likely indicate an aftermarket ball joint, so keep an eye on them.

OEM ball joints are $41.50.  So even a good brand like Moog didn't do it for you?  That one is 24 before tax, so I guess the dealer part isn't that much more.  The rear link (rear control arm) bushings are $13 each, so $52 total.  Not bad either.  But the front rear control arm bushing is a sealed unit complete with mounting bracket, and costs $117.  I think I might just go with an OEM junk yard control arm bushing in that case, on a car that looks like it had fewer miles.

I think the nail was me when I mistakenly removed then reinstalled that nut during the shock replacement job.  Maybe I overtorqued the nut.  Maybe I messed with the alignment.  The position of the ball joint thread shank and the nut affects alignment, right?  I'll get it redone done when I replace my tires later.

Damn, how do you wreck a knuckle? 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by dirty_mech

[heartless]

it is not uncommon for the pinch bolt that holds the ball joint in place on the knuckle to break.. happens all the time in salt use areas.

then begins the fight to get the broken bolt out.. usually with knuckle replacement being the end result.

Being you are in CA, you probably wont have a major issue.

[dirty_mech]

7 hours ago, heartless said:

it is not uncommon for the pinch bolt that holds the ball joint in place on the knuckle to break.. happens all the time in salt use areas.

then begins the fight to get the broken bolt out.. usually with knuckle replacement being the end result.

Being you are in CA, you probably wont have a major issue.

Yeah I'll just hit it with Liquid Wrench the day before and it'll be a breeze.  I found changing stovetop igniters once that soaking bolts in liquid wrench for one or more days will seriously increase your chance of not breaking them during removal.  A week would be ideal.  Lots of waiting but it seems to work.  I may have also had success heating bolt unions then spraying them with liquid wrench while still somewhat hot.

Saw the admonition about the pinch bolt in this video.  Going to follow this procedure, no ball joint puller:
 

 

So how about those rear upper control arm bushings.  Do they look shot or what?  I don't think I saw anything else as rough as those in the back. 

[idosubaru]

Almost all Subaru OEM engine and a mechanical parts are superior or excellent quality.  Oil filter is about the only exception for a daily driver NA Subaru. 

moog are fine way more times than not, but they’re not OEM quality. The boot is of poorer design, metal more prone to rust, and thus I assume (though I have no data for it) lesser in other ways too.  I’d install one for someone if they want but Ill avoid them in my subarus.  It’s not like it needs to last another almost 20 years like the original did. 

those rear bushings are frequently replaced.

ball joint has nothing to do with setting  alignment.

Edited September 14, 2020 by idosubaru

[Numbchux]

Moog was bought out by Federal Mogul several years ago, they're just another aftermarket suspension component. I bought a few Moog ball joints within a short period, and they all failed within a year. When I was working at Autozone, I bought a few of their Duralast-branded ones (TRW, IIRC), similar. OEM should have no trouble reaching 100k miles.

 

Drilling out broken pinch bolts is one thing, I've had a couple that were so stubborn, it cracked the ear that the pinch bolt goes through when I was trying to release it.

[idosubaru]

Yep rust is *highly* variable.  What works one time may not the next. 

I’ve had a couple so rusted into the knuckle that the ball joint ripped out of the head of the ball joint which remained rusted into the knuckle. Those are nasty and once it rips out, require drilling and flaking and chiseling to get the rest of the ball joint remnants out of the knuckle.  Those require so much force that usually any tool  you try breaks and then you move onto large digging equipment, leverage from a few thousand pounds of tractor and extreme leverage which rips the ball out. Few DIYers will encounter one that bad, or if they do, continue to find ways to try to pull one out with that much force.

Yours will not be that bad but that’s an illustration to show one method does not work in all situations. What works in most YouTube videos isn’t going to work on all 50 older Subaru northeast Ball joints. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by idosubaru

[1197sts]

Re: rear upper control arms on the Gen 2 Outbacks, I have found the easiest way to check them is: Jack up the car, put on jack stands. Reach up and grab the control arm. If the bushings are shot it will move around as you shake on it. BTW, the parts manual calls these upper later links, or something like that. When these are bad, you can have some very unpredictable handling , like abrupt fishtail going over bumps, or fishtailing when hitting icy spots. The bushings are replaceable or you can easily get these from the pick n pull. 

Re: the front control arm rear bushing it is expensive if you buy a new one, my local pick n pull charges less than 5.00 that's a pretty good solution. They are the elastomeric bearing (fluid filled), so look for ones that are not leaking and haven't chewed up the rubber spacers. They are not interchangeable left to right.

If you still have clunks the transmission mount and rear diff bushings are trouble spots too.