Timing Belts/Kit '88 EA82 Tricks or Tips?

[el_freddo]

29 minutes ago, Step-a-toe said:

And where the rotor points is important

Rotor pin has nothing to do with cam timing as it can be pulled out and incorrectly installed - throwing a red herring into the mix. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Step-a-toe]

I'd rather not thanks Bennie

[subaru1988]

Quick update...I'm pretty much at the point of putting this all back together with the parts I get. I think the water pump was actually the source of my leak, not the radiator pipe. It was either coming from the weep hole or slowly from around the gasket itself. BTW- the water pump bolts don't need thread sealer, do they? Mine seem to have some goo in the threads. I took off the water pump for peace of mind to further isolate the leak. I'm pretty sure it's not dripping from the head gasket, but I had that issue on another car, and I'm replacing the water pump so why not.

Quick question about the oil pump sprocket. In the process of cleaning all of this up, I saw a silver shim or washer? behind the sprocket. The sprocket looks great and moves fine with just a little tension, but this washer/shim behind it also can spin with the sprocket or just stay put. Kind of a different oil pump design than what I'm used to, so I thought I'd ask what it is. I didn't see anything about it in the FSM that's online, so I guess it's not that consequential. My WAG is that it's just there to make sure there's always space between the sprocket and cover..just curious.

Thanks for all the help!

Edited October 12, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

water pump bolts don't need sealer.  It's good to use anti seize on them, and other bolts.

[Step-a-toe]

Photo of shim or dimensions to jog memory?

[subaru1988]

Hey all, I'm now looking to clean everything up, put on the cam seals/O-rings, and get this all back together. One SNAFU I've seem to have found is that the back timing cover on the PASS side is a little warped and is too close to the cam sprocket for my taste. On the DRIVER side, the back cover rubs the idler pulley a little.  I might have to modify this (ie. SAND it down for clearance) some if I keep the covers on. I haven't decided on that yet- I live in snow country.

Anyway,  Step-a-Toe, here's the pic of the silver washer behind the oil pump pulley. Speaking of that, While looking at that washer to see what it was, I moved that oil pump pulley a little counter clockwise, and of course clock wise to get a better look. Turning the pump a little clockwise by hand wouldn't screw up the oil pump up, would it?! I read in another post about removing the pulley fouls up a check ball or something if you turn it the wrong way? First time I heard of this..Seems odd to me because if you are moving the engine to change belts that are still on and the whole shebang moves counter clockwise when loosening the crank pulley bolt and it slips, it moves that way?

Anyway, thanks for the great help so far..

Edited October 15, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

No, turning it by hand isn't going to do anything to the oil pump.  You can't move enough volume fast enough to harm anything.

 

[Step-a-toe]

Hmmmm, "silver washer behind oil pump pulley"

Ha, first you called it a shim, now it is a washer....

 

I think it is just the belt guide, can't even recall if it is or isn't just part of the pulley

As Dave says, the oil pump does not have to be timed to any other rotating component.

Actually there are cut outs of the pulley "washers" that I use to access the pump to block bolts, so always turning pump on its own.

Never heard the cock and ball story you found !

Edited October 15, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[subaru1988]

Thanks, guys. Glad to hear! I found that post while looking for info on gauging tension on the belts. I guess the poster found that his oil pump pulley had a lot of play, so he was taking it off to see why, and someone suggested that if he takes it off on the car, it will rotate counterclockwise and push the check ball off its seat because it's hard to hold still.

The "belt guide" on the pump pulley makes sense. After seeing what's going on with my back covers rubbing a little because they're probably warped, my guess was it's to try to avoid the cover rubbing on the oil pump pulley? Like I said, the idler pulley is rubbing a little on the cover, and the PASS. cam sprocket probably rubs some when the engine heats up. If I keep the covers on, which I might because of weather considerations, I'll have to sand this stuff down.

Speaking of belt tension, before I took the passenger belt off, I measured it, and it was a little over 1/2 inch of deflection at the mid point. I know that's not how you do it, but that seemed like too much from what I've read. That side's tensioner also has a slight wobble, and it seems to turn too easy, so it's toast.

Just waiting for the big brown truck now..

Edited October 15, 2020 by subaru1988

[scoobydube]

The water pumps will not likely last longer than 25,000 miles if you do not plug up the upper weep hole with gasket maker, or 40,000 miles if you do plug up the hole.  In my experience.  And when they go out, the fan wobbles so badly that it will cut into the radiator, requiring a new one.  A trick to setting the timing belt over the camshaft gear, is to temporarily set the tension adjuster wheels so that the spring is fully extended.  Then you can install the camshaft gear without having to deal with the timing belt.  And then the timing belt slips on easily over the gear, afterward.  Otherwise, you will be fighting the timing belt while trying to line up on the pin that puts the gear in the correct position.  For back cover clearance, trying taking them off, laying them flat, put some weight on the high points that have warped outward, and apply heat from a heat gun until the warp is taken out of the back cover.  For attaching the front cover, use plastic washers beneath the bolt heads in order to keep those bolt threads from seizing inside of the back cover threaded inserts.  1986 GL10 Wagon 480,000 miles original owner

[Ionstorm66]

4 hours ago, scoobydube said:

The water pumps will not likely last longer than 25,000 miles if you do not plug up the upper weep hole with gasket maker, or 40,000 miles if you do plug up the hole.  In my experience.  And when they go out, the fan wobbles so badly that it will cut into the radiator, requiring a new one.  A trick to setting the timing belt over the camshaft gear, is to temporarily set the tension adjuster wheels so that the spring is fully extended.  Then you can install the camshaft gear without having to deal with the timing belt.  And then the timing belt slips on easily over the gear, afterward.  Otherwise, you will be fighting the timing belt while trying to line up on the pin that puts the gear in the correct position.  For back cover clearance, trying taking them off, laying them flat, put some weight on the high points that have warped outward, and apply heat from a heat gun until the warp is taken out of the back cover.  For attaching the front cover, use plastic washers beneath the bolt heads in order to keep those bolt threads from seizing inside of the back cover threaded inserts.  1986 GL10 Wagon 480,000 miles original owner

Plugging the upper weep hope dosent make it last any longer, it just takes you longer to find out the shaft seal is shot. Once coolant is to the weep hole it has made it though the seal and bearing. Sealing the hole only means it has to work though the other bearing before you notice it. Gives you a much higher chance of the bearing seizing before you notice. Also if the fan and belts are in good shape, pumps should last 100k.

[subaru1988]

5 hours ago, scoobydube said:

The water pumps will not likely last longer than 25,000 miles if you do not plug up the upper weep hole with gasket maker, or 40,000 miles if you do plug up the hole.  In my experience.  And when they go out, the fan wobbles so badly that it will cut into the radiator, requiring a new one.  A trick to setting the timing belt over the camshaft gear, is to temporarily set the tension adjuster wheels so that the spring is fully extended.  Then you can install the camshaft gear without having to deal with the timing belt.  And then the timing belt slips on easily over the gear, afterward.  Otherwise, you will be fighting the timing belt while trying to line up on the pin that puts the gear in the correct position.  For back cover clearance, trying taking them off, laying them flat, put some weight on the high points that have warped outward, and apply heat from a heat gun until the warp is taken out of the back cover.  For attaching the front cover, use plastic washers beneath the bolt heads in order to keep those bolt threads from seizing inside of the back cover threaded inserts.  1986 GL10 Wagon 480,000 miles original owner

Thanks for the tips. My water pump lasted 70K miles, so it must have been doing ok. I thought the upper hole was actually a vent hole? Speaking of water pumps, my bolts for that were loose enough that I could have taken them off with a nut driver with very little effort. That seems almost TOO loose to me...?

Good tip about the belt and "bending" the back cover, thanks. You have 480,000 miles on your '86!? Man..Is that on the original engine? I have 258,000 on mine, and I was just hoping to get another 25K out of the car. It's really been a great car, so it doesn't owe me anything, but wow..480,000!

Dug in a little farther while waiting for parts..It's now down to cleaning and removing. I put the old PASS belt back on to get the cam sprocket off, made it tight, and I found that the cam sprocket IS hitting the back cover after I got it off. It has a 1/16 or so trail on the cover. I also found that there is no obvious leak from the cam seal. I'm thinking I might leave that since it seems OK instead of creating a possible problem.

I tried to get the back crankshaft sprocket off, but it doesn't just come off like the front. I'm not seeing any real leakage there either, FWIW.

Edited October 15, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

Those bolts sound a little loose..  I don't remember the torque spec off the top of my head.    They are small, not grade 8, screwed into aluminum, so they aren't "head bolt" tight either.

[Step-a-toe]

8 hours ago, Ionstorm66 said:

Plugging the upper weep hope dosent make it last any longer, it just takes you longer to find out the shaft seal is shot. Once coolant is to the weep hole it has made it though the seal and bearing. Sealing the hole only means it has to work though the other bearing before you notice it. Gives you a much higher chance of the bearing seizing before you notice. Also if the fan and belts are in good shape, pumps should last 100k.

Maybe plug up the lower weep hole and plumb the top one into the cabin to drop on accelerator foot

or rig up a pair of wires and alarm to trigger when coolant makes contact?

[subaru1988]

On 10/15/2020 at 4:10 PM, DaveT said:

Those bolts sound a little loose..  I don't remember the torque spec off the top of my head.    They are small, not grade 8, screwed into aluminum, so they aren't "head bolt" tight either.

Yea, I've looked in the FSM and there's nothing about torquing those bolts. I'll have to check around some more..My guess would be 7-12 ft. lbs, maybe?

I checked the exposed cam seal after letting it sit a day, and no leaks of any kind. I also sprayed PB Blaster on the crank snout yesterday, and whaddya know, the second sprocket came off. There is no oil leak there either. What I do see are little marks that look like someone used a socket extension to pound it in, so I believe it was replaced. I'm leaving those alone. No sense causing a problem.

Quick question..I took the idler pulley off today because I'm basically waiting for parts at this point and doing little things here and there, and the bolt came with it. I'm guessing that's not how it's supposed to come off, so any tricks? I'm thinking cranking it down in a vise, but honestly this idler pulley isn't bad at all, and frankly, I wouldn't mind keeping it as a spare. I've even contemplated reusing it, but many here say don't do it.

Thanks!

Edited October 16, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

CAm seals don't leak sitting.  There is also an oring behind the little piece with 2 bolts that the cam seal is pressed into.  The OEM ones get hard and leak also.  The new ones I've put in are viton, and don't get hard.  I'll see if I can find the torque spec.  But yes, something like that sounds about right.  The idler pulley - do you mean the one with teeth?  I replace the bearing on those.  It's a standard bearing, just make sure you get contact seals- if the description does not specifically say contact, they are not good for this application.

 

[DaveT]

oddly, they don't seem to show torque for the pump mounting bolts.  The nuts on the studs that hold the pulley and fan are 6.7-7.7FtLbs.  So I would not go above that.

[subaru1988]

18 minutes ago, DaveT said:

CAm seals don't leak sitting.  There is also an oring behind the little piece with 2 bolts that the cam seal is pressed into.  The OEM ones get hard and leak also.  The new ones I've put in are viton, and don't get hard.  I'll see if I can find the torque spec.  But yes, something like that sounds about right.  The idler pulley - do you mean the one with teeth?  I replace the bearing on those.  It's a standard bearing, just make sure you get contact seals- if the description does not specifically say contact, they are not good for this application.

 

Ok...Honestly, I had zero oil on the cam housing to clean up. I really think the source of my problems was two things. First, the water pump was basically hanging on with loose bolts and the gasket. I put no effort whatsoever in taking those bolts off. Second, I think the earlier post about the belts rubbing on the back cover and putting goo all over the place was a problem. If you combine that with the coolant, that's the "leak" out of the timing cover.

As for the idler pulley, I feel kind of stupid. I wrapped the pulley shank in a rag, put it in a vise, and the bolt came right off. It looked like maybe there was a little sealer or something on it. I just didn't think hard enough to realize it was a bolt with a partly smooth shank. It makes sense because it's in a bearing! DUH.. I'll keep buying only the bearings in mind. Mine seems pretty decent, FWIW.

Thanks for posting that. I'll use those torque values as my guide. Honestly, it took much more effort to take the fan pulley off the pump, and those bolts are supposed to be at 7, I think.

This is a very different car than what I'm used to. All these pulleys and stuff makes it seem like giant watch sometimes..Makes you wonder more if somethings going to get screwed up. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by subaru1988

[el_freddo]

I replace cam and crank seals as a part of the timing belt service. You don’t want to deal with a leaking seal because you didn’t put in the extra bit of time and effort to swap the seal. 

It’s not like the seal is easily accessible. 

With the EJ timing kit the crank and cam seals come as part of the kit from what I remember. I now buy the parts individually as I get genuine when I can. Better bang for buck in my experience. 

EA82, I’d run whatever timing kit and have a spare kit on hand with a set of tools to do the job on the side of the road if needed. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Ionstorm66]

14 hours ago, el_freddo said:

I replace cam and crank seals as a part of the timing belt service. You don’t want to deal with a leaking seal because you didn’t put in the extra bit of time and effort to swap the seal. 

It’s not like the seal is easily accessible. 

With the EJ timing kit the crank and cam seals come as part of the kit from what I remember. I now buy the parts individually as I get genuine when I can. Better bang for buck in my experience. 

EA82, I’d run whatever timing kit and have a spare kit on hand with a set of tools to do the job on the side of the road if needed. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Yeah I consider a timing set a required spare on these cars. Atleast belts, you can spray lube a dead bearing to get you far enough to replace it, but rigging will save you from no belt.

[Step-a-toe]

21 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

Ok...Honestly, I had zero oil on the cam housing to clean up. I really think the source of my problems was two things. First, the water pump was basically hanging on with loose bolts and the gasket. I put no effort whatsoever in taking those bolts off. Second, I think the earlier post about the belts rubbing on the back cover and putting goo all over the place was a problem. If you combine that with the coolant, that's the "leak" out of the timing cover.

As for the idler pulley, I feel kind of stupid. I wrapped the pulley shank in a rag, put it in a vise, and the bolt came right off. It looked like maybe there was a little sealer or something on it. I just didn't think hard enough to realize it was a bolt with a partly smooth shank. It makes sense because it's in a bearing! DUH.. I'll keep buying only the bearings in mind. Mine seems pretty decent, FWIW.

Thanks for posting that. I'll use those torque values as my guide. Honestly, it took much more effort to take the fan pulley off the pump, and those bolts are supposed to be at 7, I think.

This is a very different car than what I'm used to. All these pulleys and stuff makes it seem like giant watch sometimes..Makes you wonder more if somethings going to get screwed up. 

I did my first EA82 timing belt swap over 25 years ago and admired the access ( better than any east west I have seen or done), admired the step by step checks for instal

absolutely hated the brass inserts in the covers for getting screwed up, so I use a neoprene screw washer or O ring as a fastening method. They have never come undone or sized on me since.

Keep these babies cool, below 3/4 on a working gauge and sender set, keep oil in them and they give decades of service.

I have started to do belts n tensioners at about 60 or 70 thousand kms as a courtesy to the old girls

[subaru1988]

You guys make some good points. The passenger belt I have is OK for in a pinch, and I just might get a driver's side for a spare. My tensioners could probably be reused, but one is not so great, the other is not bad, and as I've said, I'm considering reusing the idler pulley. It's NOT a Subaru original. It has no real play, spins with some tension, and no noise. In other words at the very least, I'll have spare belts and parts. All that said, I WILL be replacing the tensioners with the belts.

I hear you on those cover inserts. I removed two of them after prying the case off. Since I live in snow country, I'm leaning toward putting the covers back on. I'll look for some neoprene screw washers to replace the ones that broke, or I've also thought about zip ties and carrying wire cutters, too  . I do have to admit that the access is great and the checks ARE pretty clever.

I know one thing. These cars are TOUGH, if like you said, you take reasonable care topping off the oil and keep them from overheating. Some people would balk at doing this sort of work on a car with 258K miles, many of those highway miles, but my plugs look great, the car still gets 30+ mpg, so why the heck not.

Edited October 18, 2020 by subaru1988

[scoobydube]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:37 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

Plugging the upper weep hope dosent make it last any longer, it just takes you longer to find out the shaft seal is shot. Once coolant is to the weep hole it has made it though the seal and bearing. Sealing the hole only means it has to work though the other bearing before you notice it. Gives you a much higher chance of the bearing seizing before you notice. Also if the fan and belts are in good shape, pumps should last 100k.

The subaru dealer used to recommend changing the water pump at 15,000 miles.  No doubt because they were failing in 20,000 miles when the grime is not kept out of the water pump bearings by plugging the top hole, but not the bottom hole.  I had total bearing failure at 25,000 miles with no top plug.  Just changed one at 40,000 miles with a top plug and no bottom plug and the seals were getting a little sticky, so it may have made it to 45,000 miles with a top plug.  Leaving the bottom hole open, lets you know about when the seals are shot.

[subaru1988]

After waiting for my water pump and a few other parts, including a cheap tool that worked awesome for the sprockets (link below), I took the beltless sprocket off today to check the cam seal. I was hoping it was leak free like the passenger side, but it has signs of leakage, so I'll be going ahead and doing the seals and O-rings on both sides with the FelPro kit. The FSM shows a picture of the "pin" in the cam pointing to 12:00 (lined up with the head/valve cover) when you take the housing out. Is that what you guys do? Coat both with oil, except outside of seal, when installing, right? I'm hoping those bolts aren't TIGHT.

I bought an Aisin water pump and it looks like nice quality and the hub height is right. Frankly, the gasket looks like the Subaru OEM gasket, so I don't think I'll use sealer on it, as the information paper with the pump specifically says not to. My mounting surface is in nice shape anyway.

Anyway, here is the tool. Yes, you can easily make a version of the Y shaped tool. I made a sprocket turner with a piece of plastic pipe drilled through and 1/4 bolts. It worked great, but for $10 to hold the sprocket to take the bolts off, put them on, and maybe even take the slack out of the belts, how can you go wrong..  The smaller pins are practically an exact fit. I can probably use this for other stuff too. Sure, it kind of looks crude but feels like decent quality IMHO.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HFFR9RR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for all the tips! 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

The little piece that holds the cam seal is round where it goes into the carrier.   You can twist it while removing / installing.  Just have to line up the holes to get the bolts in.  I put a little oil on the oring and the seal lips.  Only press the seal in until it's flush on the outside - they will go in too deep.
The bolts I have removed from these have always been clean with normal torque to remove, since they are oiled by the leaks.