Step-a-toe Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 12 hours ago, scoobydube said: The subaru dealer used to recommend changing the water pump at 15,000 miles. No doubt because they were failing in 20,000 miles when the grime is not kept out of the water pump bearings by plugging the top hole, but not the bottom hole. I had total bearing failure at 25,000 miles with no top plug. Just changed one at 40,000 miles with a top plug and no bottom plug and the seals were getting a little sticky, so it may have made it to 45,000 miles with a top plug. Leaving the bottom hole open, lets you know about when the seals are shot. I have done nearly 700,000 km in EA Subarus and three water pumps. Not thinking of replacing them at that recommended interval ! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 I have not had that kind of failure rate either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) Replacing a water pump every 15K seems odd to me. I mean, we have cars today that have oil change intervals at 10K. That's like doing a water pump every other oil change, AND you throw in the fact that the belts should last 40K? So that's two water pumps worth? I must be lucky, because I think my car is only on its 3rd water pump at 258K. I know one was done "because we're already in there for all this other stuff", which I understand to a point, but according to an old receipt I found, they weren't always $30 either. They did that, but I'm fairly confident I'm running the original cam seals. So much for "we're already in there" always being to the customer's benefit. After I swap out the cam seals, it'll be going back together. Two things I may also do "while I'm in there" are replace the dipstick tube o-ring and the o-ring on the radiator fan sensor. I sure am glad all these parts are cheap on the 'net, because this job would have been WAY more expensive parts wise locally. Now that I'm 60% through the job, I think the $350 paid last time for JUST a timing belt change with no tensioners or seals at all was a little much. Edited October 26, 2020 by subaru1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, subaru1988 said: Replacing a water pump every 15K seems odd to me. I saw that comment and didn’t respond because it’s not true. Something is off, probably not intentionally. It is anecdotal, mis-remembering, miscommunication, or some inaccurate assumptions were made. This happens *all the time*. Its so common Occams Razor can’t be ignored. If I heard a dealer say that I would assume I misheard, someone misspoke, the tech is wrong, or one dealer on the globe has some crack pot scheme to sell more services that no other dealer is doing. Edited October 26, 2020 by idosubaru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionstorm66 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Also not to mention the bearings are sealed. The weep hole goes between the 2 sets of bearings. So dirt and grime getting into the weep hole dose nothing for the bearings unless the bearings are already shot. The weep hole let's you know the water seal has failed and water is being pushed though the seals on the inner bearing. Only way they would be failing at 20K is if you had a bad fan or v belt causing vibration. The weep hole would have nothing to do with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 So after a shipping snafu put me behind, I finally received my cam seals. Quick question..Can the cam seals (not o-rings, obviously) be installed in the housing OFF the car? It seems to me like it would be easier to get them level with the surrounding metal off the car, and then use the bolts to draw the seal over the cam snout after tapping on the housing itself to get it started? Luckily, it just a matter of putting it all back together now. I know a lot of posters here don't use the covers, but I think I'll be putting mine back on. They are in OK shape, and I only had a few bolts that gave me any trouble, and I can use ZIP ties on that stuff. In the winter with all the mag chloride/salt/rocks and stuff on the roads, I just don't think I want to risk it. Thanks for all the tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Yes you can install the cam seals in the housing first. DO NOT use the bolts to attempt to draw the housing down. You will break the housing. VERY gently tap and twist to get the housing seated against the o-ring (replace the o-ring obviously), and only tighten the bolts once it's fully seated. GD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Step-a-toe Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 As GD says, yes. I reckon it is the only way to do this job for best results. And yes on reuse timing belt housings to preserve cat and possum tails from skipping the belts. I would fear getting a flock of massive hoppers stuck between belt and cogs when least need a belt skip 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 (edited) Yep install seal in cap, add oring, lubricate properly, twist to seat. Torque carefully without stripping the bolts. Edited November 1, 2020 by idosubaru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 Thanks.. Miles Fox's video shows him taking the seal out of the engine and replacing the actual seal on the engine over the cam. That's great if you have the engine out, but I don't think I can get enough hammer swing to "press" it in properly IN the car. Glad I asked first about using the bolts to pull the seal over the cam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 2, 2020 Share Posted November 2, 2020 2 hours ago, subaru1988 said: Thanks.. Miles Fox's video shows him taking the seal out of the engine and replacing the actual seal on the engine over the cam. That's great if you have the engine out, but I don't think I can get enough hammer swing to "press" it in properly IN the car. Glad I asked first about using the bolts to pull the seal over the cam! Best to remove anyway to replace the oring. There’s an oring at the base of the metal cap to seal between the cap and the cam carrier. They’re often ancient, rock hard, and ready to leak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I always carry a spare set of belts in the back of the car.... and seems like the driver side belt is the breaker.... I have yet to see the smaller belt brake.... I like to run with the cover fronts off... yes, and even behind the crank pulley...(no cover)..... This makes it a quick change when they break..........(non-interferance motor....) so no covers... for me.... but, if you have covers on.... you have to loosen the crank bolt......... I have put a nice socket on there. with a long bar on it.... get it up against the frame...... remove the coil wire from distributor.... and on quick turn of the ignition key,,,,, usually loosens the crank bolt... you are using the turning of the motor to loosen the crank bolt.....(just don't hold the key... just a quick turn of ign. key..) Also..... changing the tensioners........ makes for a nice quiet motor......... Do the water pump while you are there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, mickytrus said: I always carry a spare set of belts in the back of the car.... and seems like the driver side belt is the breaker.... I have yet to see the smaller belt brake.... I like to run with the cover fronts off... yes, and even behind the crank pulley...(no cover)..... This makes it a quick change when they break..........(non-interferance motor....) so no covers... for me.... but, if you have covers on.... you have to loosen the crank bolt......... I have put a nice socket on there. with a long bar on it.... get it up against the frame...... remove the coil wire from distributor.... and on quick turn of the ignition key,,,,, usually loosens the crank bolt... you are using the turning of the motor to loosen the crank bolt.....(just don't hold the key... just a quick turn of ign. key..) Also..... changing the tensioners........ makes for a nice quiet motor......... Do the water pump while you are there. Yea, my passenger belt was in OK shape despite the fact that the pulley and belt wore a groove in the cover. Maybe that was before since this time the belts only lasted about 35K. It'll be one of my new spares. Believe me...I hear you guys about the covers. They've easily been the hardest (most time consuming) part of the job only in that that they needed to be REALLY cleaned out. I also had to work them with a Dremel to get the clearance back from them being warped. The pulley clears it fine now, so does the idler, and so should the belts. The shop who did the job last time more than likely cleaned nothing, and they put the covers on too damn tight. I was lucky nothing broke. The FSM says 3 pounds, not 10 pounds- the cover bolts were literally on tighter than the water pump bolts. I wouldn't mind leaving them off, but this car does winter duty with splashback from road salt, mag chloride, and all that garbage. I just don't know how the bearings and seals would hold up to all that corrosive stuff, not to mention the snow and water getting all over the belts and tensioners. I was lucky that I found an actual Kent Moore flywheel stopper to use. It worked GREAT, so taking the crank pulley off was nowhere near the worst part of the job, and it has me leaning to running without the front covers for a few weeks to make sure there isn't any funny business going on. I did the cam seals a few days ago, which was not bad at all. It looks to me they might have been done quite some time ago, because there were a few small scratches on the seal metal as if they'd been taken out. I used a screwdriver covered with duct tape to avoid that, and I saw the marks on the old seal. I used a 2.5 inch piece of PVC pipe to get the seals flush with the surrounding metal, and it worked nice. Looking to get out of a cold front here so I can flush out the coolant in the block the best I can, put the water pump, tensioners, and belts on so I can run it for 10 seconds or so to see where I'm at. Nice part is aside from the crank pulley and idler, I've taken everything apart with a 1/4 inch ratchet! Lots of room to work, too. Great pointers in this thread, I'm sure grateful for it. Edited November 9, 2020 by subaru1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carfreak85 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, subaru1988 said: I wouldn't mind leaving them off, but this car does winter duty with splashback from road salt, mag chloride, and all that garbage. I just don't know how the bearings and seals would hold up to all that corrosive stuff, not to mention the snow and water getting all over the belts and tensioners. The parts you mention would NOT be happy about road spray. Unless you live in L.A. and drive on pavement every day, I would always recommend running the belt covers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) Dude, if you are in the rust belt....(As so is I) you must bathe everything with ANTI-SIEZE.......... I ran those cars..... a long time.... but it was because of a couple of preventative factors.... Anti-sieze everything!........ even clips....... like ebrake clips...... and the brake hose clips on struts.... anti-sieze.... and the metal around the brake hose. where the clip sits.... anti-sieze.... Rubber..... bathe in brake fluid......... flex line exteriors.... bathe in brake fluid........ Are you interested in any body parts? even mechanical parts... I have some........... my cars sadly are done......... they made it over 300k........ I rebuilt them once or twice..... finally the wheel wells went..(on my last one was gunna fix them but, got something with next to no mileage.........so..... should just let them go.........). there was one car I put new wheel wells in......... think I got 307K out of that one....... regarding cams seals(the o rings)....... I always see them leaking......... I do a timing and belt and then in no time they are leaking..... I think they were a bad design....... those motors at less than 50k would leak from the cam seal...(o-rings)........ So....... I started using anaerobic sealant on them.... if you are not familiar with this stuff... I can find some and send a link.... There was a time... when I had a timing belt tensioner seize........ if you will have the car for a while..... worth replacing them and the idler gear........ you can get two runs... out of the tensioners(two sets of belts -- 100k+ (spin the idler by hand - should not make noise) a new idler doesn't spin.(by hand well).. it is sorta tight......... .(replace that stuff and the motor will be way quieter......) Yeah, I lost my covers..... threw them under the work bench just in case........... never missed them... best thing I ever did.... without the covers on....... a timing belt job... is between twenty five and forty five minutes in length........ and I have been stranded......... and grateful....I had no covers on...... regards, Micky Edited November 9, 2020 by mickytrus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Quick update..I'm almost there. The mail order parts game is really great for saving money on these cars, not so much for saving time if there are order snafus, slow shipments, or crappy weather. In the meantime, I took the time to clean out all the bolt holes that I've used so I could thread by hand; it was worth the time, IMHO. The water pump holes were packed with a lot of RTV. I just couldn't see taking the time to do this job without cleaning it all up, including the much hated covers . I also flushed out the engine. Anyway, all I have left is to somehow raise the DRIVER side tensioner without that "special tool" to so I can get the belt on on that side. It seems like the PASSENGER tensioner is a piece of cake, so belt on that side too ASAP. I sure appreciate all the help. The FSM is great and all, but the tips I've received in this thread made a huge difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Aye! No special tool for driver's side tensioner..... the thing to do... before u put the belt on...... is to bolt it in the opposite direction...... (if you know what I mean)..... just get it out of the way by pushing it..... then the slide bolt.... tighten it up...... when you get the belt on.... Just loosen the slide bolt... it will pop into place........ that is all I do... with my belts.... I don't put anymore tension on the belt than the spring tension..... run without covers.... bathe 'em in anti-seize!!! (had five of these cars....total over 1Million miles,,, maybe 1.25+ ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, mickytrus said: Aye! No special tool for driver's side tensioner..... the thing to do... before u put the belt on...... is to bolt it in the opposite direction...... (if you know what I mean)..... just get it out of the way by pushing it..... then the slide bolt.... tighten it up...... when you get the belt on.... Just loosen the slide bolt... it will pop into place........ that is all I do... with my belts.... I don't put anymore tension on the belt than the spring tension..... run without covers.... bathe 'em in anti-seize!!! (had five of these cars....total over 1Million miles,,, maybe 1.25+ ) Not sure what you meant by "bolt it in the opposite direction", but I get what you're saying about loosening the slide bolt and it pops into place. What I did was I used the top body of the water pump ( I tightened the bolts @ 7lbs, BTW) for a little leverage for my hands, pushed up with one hand and tightened the ratchet/socket I left hanging on the slot bolt with the other when I had it almost to the end of the slot. I really didn't want to pry on anything. Kind of goofy but it worked, and it looks like I have the clearance. I wonder if Kent Moore struck it rich with all of these "special tools" that the FSM and Haynes mention? I can see the flywheel stopper, but the other tools seem like luxuries? Anyway.. I have the crank pulley on and the mark on the LH side dead on, so I'm leaving the pulley on. I now can't really see the belt going into the oil pump sprocket ridges, but I guess I have to trust it is. I've been curious if anyone knows the torque for the pitch stopper bolts? I found 35/40 lb. ft. for newer Subarus. Does that sound right for an '88? That's one of those missing parts from the FSM that's online. Again, all the tips in this thread are much appreciated. Edited November 18, 2020 by subaru1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Pitch stopper bolts - just do them up tight. I always use the arm gauge for the torque setting on those bolts. Cheers Bennie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 (edited) Well, I had some free time today and the weather is cooperating, so I put the belts on. I had to work with the LH belt a little, and it's as dead on to 12:00 as I could get it- maybe 2 mm off, if that? RH belt was much easier, of course. One mark is at 12:00, one is at 6:00 on each full revolution with the housing mark lining up with the center mark on the flywheel. I tensioned the belts with a tool I made from a electrical box cover and some 1/4 inch bolts. I torqued the center bolt down on my "tool" to 50 lb ft. so it wouldn't release with my torque wrench, and it worked. Too bad I busted my distributor cap in the process, though. I took it off and laid it on the hoses just to see the rotor turn, and damned if it didn't fall toward the rotor, get wedged between it and something else, and it put a huge crack in the stupid cap when I was turning the motor by hand! I don't think that would hurt the distributor...the cap is a lot less sturdy? EDIT- By a stroke of luck, I found a cap locally. Took each one of the old wires off, put them on the new cap. I thought I would do the "10 second run" for the belts without the water pump and alternator, and it's not starting. I'll post pics of where my holes/notches/flywheel marks are. I checked the firing order on the cap, and it's fine. I also looked at a few fuses that I thought the most logical, and those were OK. I'll try charging my battery tomorrow. When it conked out on me, I did try cranking it quite a bit, plus I used the starter to move the car off the road. There was also a little ground wire hooked up to the radiator that I didn't connect anywhere; I'll find a spot for that. Hopefully, it's something easy. Pic order- Driver Side, Passenger Side, Flywheel Marks Thanks! Edited November 19, 2020 by subaru1988 Added Pictures.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 With the flywheel at the middle of the 3 |||, one cam mark should be straight up, the other straight down. Just a note, to take better care of batteries - if you crank on one a lot, get it on a charger as soon as practical after. LA batteries do not like sitting discharged, the longer the worse. Give it a 1-2 second shot of carb cleaner, and hold the pedal a little open, see if it fires. If it does, you have spark at the right time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) My battery shows about the middle of the gauge on the charger when on trickle for just a few seconds, so I'll give it some juice at 5 amps when I can monitor what it's doing. I got about 12.1 or a little over on a volt meter. Is it safe to assume I can just take the boot off the throttle body and pour a little gasoline down the throat like a carb (which I'm way more familiar with )? There could be a little parallax error in my pics, but either way, they don't look a "tooth off" or anything to me..but this my first time doing an EA82 timing belt, so there's that. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it. Edited November 19, 2020 by subaru1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Fuel down the throttle body will work just the same as down the throat of a carbie. Cheers Bennie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru1988 Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) I have the battery on the charger, so I'll see what that does. I also cleaned the grounds and stuck the wire that was on the radiator on the water pipe ground so it too is grounded. I didn't have the water pipe on yesterday, I grounded it right to the bolt on the block. I also checked the fuel pump connector just because, and it was connected. I thought maybe it worked loose getting unloaded after the tow. I'll take a look at another fuse I found in a search here yesterday. After all this, I'll try a teaspoon or whatever of gas down the bore when my battery is charged. I turned the engine by hand again, and the alignment marks are basically like the pics I posted yesterday. It turns fine, no struggles, and the distributor rotor turns fine too. It really has no wiggle side to side, and the screw IS in. The rotor moves the instant I turn the crank. I see from doing a search that it's not always a "dead nuts on" proposition with the marks. To me, my marks look OK- one's up, one's down, mark in the middle of the valve timing marks. Edited November 19, 2020 by subaru1988 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 For typical car batteries - resting voltage 12.0 is fully discharged. 12.6 is fully charged. Resting means no current in or out for a day or so. It should take at least 10 hours at 5 amps to get part way charged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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