Timing Belts/Kit '88 EA82 Tricks or Tips?

[subaru1988]

4 hours ago, DaveT said:

For typical car batteries - resting voltage 12.0 is fully discharged.   12.6 is fully charged.   Resting means no current in or out for a day or so.  It should take at least 10 hours at 5 amps to get part way charged.  

Interesting.. I checked it before trying to start the car, and it was barely above 12. I was mistaken yesterday. I have a 10 AMP/2 AMP manual charger. I put it on 10 AMP, and it was in the "engine assist" area on the ammeter for about an hour or so until it made it's way to between the half and full battery icons about..5 hours later. Your time frame for a full charge is right on! I checked it this AM, and it's just under 13 volts. I hope this is the major issue, because I installed those belts to the TEE using the great instructions in this thread, and one would think it should at least sputter to life. 

When you do this start without the water pump and alt, it's OK to just leave the alt wires in the air, right? That doesn't send an error to the ECU? Never done it before on a "computer controlled car", so I thought I'd clear it up.

Edited November 20, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

Just make sure they can't move and hit anything.  The ECU doesn't care about the alternator.  It's a lot simpler than the modern ones.
It might take some cranking to re fire, not like just a normal first start from overnight.  If it gets flooded, hold the gas down to the floor and crank.

 

[subaru1988]

I went ahead and took the distributor out of the car to check it out for peace of mind. The screw (M5X16X.8 FWIW) that holds the piece the rotor screws to to the actual distributor shaft has seen better days, so I replaced it with a stainless one with an allen head to make it easier to take off if I have to.

Let me rephrase..If I put the distributor back in as the FSM shows with the flywheel at 0 (and cam sprockets show 45 degrees on both sides, I guess) and the rotor then points to number one like in Fox's video, I can get my timing close to what it was when I took the distributor out by doing the above and then simply putting the housing where the hold down bolts were to begin with? It would be the same thing as me simply putting the mark at 0 to take the distributor out with the rotor pointing at 1 and then removing the distributor, right?

Edited November 22, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

If you follow the instructions in the FSM, it will be more than close enough to start.   Don't forget to connect the test connectors per the FSM when measuring the timing.  When only replacing timing belts & idlers, I never had to adjust the timing.

[subaru1988]

5 hours ago, DaveT said:

If you follow the instructions in the FSM, it will be more than close enough to start.   Don't forget to connect the test connectors per the FSM when measuring the timing.  When only replacing timing belts & idlers, I never had to adjust the timing.

 

On 9/30/2020 at 11:47 PM, Step-a-toe said:

It is for setting the Series One dizzy.

So, as labels state, these are at #1 TDC not 20° as stated an hour ago....When in these pictures positions, I have one more pic for how Series One dizzy should look and there is about a 25 though "gap" before the two bits line up

 

On 9/30/2020 at 11:49 PM, Step-a-toe said:

This is how things line up under dizzy cap and two pics above with flywheel at 20° mark .Starts first time for me, then adjust with timing light at correct revs etc

 

 

5 hours ago, DaveT said:

If you follow the instructions in the FSM, it will be more than close enough to start.   Don't forget to connect the test connectors per the FSM when measuring the timing.  When only replacing timing belts & idlers, I never had to adjust the timing.

 

Thanks! The green connectors are on the PASS side in the engine compartment, IIRC. Also if I hopefully get to the point that it's running again, when I connect those connectors, the fuel pump will be clicking, and it's supposed to do that, right? I felt I needed to take out the dizzy to look at it after I had the mishap with the rotor cracking the cap. There was an issue there, and I'm glad I took it out.

Step-a-Toe pics really help with this, as does his second comment. He says that when he puts his flywheel at 20 BTDC, that's how his (not mine, I have the one with the disc) dizzy looks inside. To me, that means he sets his flywheel mark to 20 BTDC instead of 0 when installing a distributor. That's what I was trying to get at, I guess. From my understanding, even at 20 BTDC, the rotor should still be pointing somewhere around the number one post.

Anyway, to keep it simpler, I'll do it the FSM way, and I'll put the hold down bolts where they were when I took it off since that position is marked exactly. Hopefully, that will be fine to work with to at least start the car for 10 seconds, check the timing belts, fill it with coolant, move the car to a different spot, and warm it up to finally set the timing with a light to 20 BTDC.

Edited November 22, 2020 by subaru1988

[subaru1988]

Quick update- It started right up with barely a crank . I was a little worried about the distributor, because I had to take the rotor "holder" off to do some work on it, but I guess if the actual electronics were damaged in some way, it wouldn't have started at all. I guess the timing is at 0, but I DID move the housing to where the bolts were at initially too. It seemed smooth enough for now, but it was only 10 or so seconds twice. It looks like I need to figure out how to clean the corrosion off of the test connectors, too. They're looking a little shabby.

Anyway, I finger checked the tension of the timing belts after I ran it about 10 seconds, and then another 10 seconds sans water pump/alt/etc. The tension doesn't seem much different to me, maybe a little more slack. The PASS side is not as loose as it was when I started this whole process with the old belt.

It's a huge step in progress, and I REALLY appreciate the help I've received from everybody.

Edited November 23, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

Sounds good.  I always re set the tension after the 10 second run.  Sometimes it changes, sometimes it doesn't.  The tension spec is what it is in part to allow for the effects of time and temperature cycles.

[Step-a-toe]

Oh, ok optical dizzy ....

Been meaning to sort the rotor retaining screw as a Allen head M5 0.8mm pitch, 16 mm length ...scratch that to memory jonno

 

And a woohoo for it now starting to sound positive.

No badge yet for length of time to sort things. Think I hold one for five months !

[subaru1988]

2 hours ago, Step-a-toe said:

Oh, ok optical dizzy ....

Been meaning to sort the rotor retaining screw as a Allen head M5 0.8mm pitch, 16 mm length ...scratch that to memory jonno

 

And a woohoo for it now starting to sound positive.

No badge yet for length of time to sort things. Think I hold one for five months !

That $1 Allen screw I replaced the toasted original with was literally make it or break it...Believe me  The positive part about taking the dizzy apart was finding a thread on here about the whole electronic guts/bearing of it being easily available for 1/4 of what a "new" dizzy would cost.

I wish it wasn't dragging out, but man..Putting new parts with filthy parts would just be wasting my time. It takes longer to order stuff, but the cost savings is literally unbelievable. I'll take a length of time badge, too

[subaru1988]

On 10/16/2020 at 6:16 PM, DaveT said:

oddly, they don't seem to show torque for the pump mounting bolts.  The nuts on the studs that hold the pulley and fan are 6.7-7.7FtLbs.  So I would not go above that.

So about those water pump bolts...heh  . Now I know why there was sealant of some kind clogging up the threads.

I have things back together (not the covers, thankfully yet), I know the car will run as it started right up, but.. I have seepage/leak from the 10:00 and 12:00 water pump bolts with the car just sitting after merely filling the rad. I torqued them all around 7.0-8 ft. lbs before adding coolant, and yes, I torqued them in a star pattern. I also cleaned the mating surfaces REALLY well.

After adding coolant, and seeing the slight leak, I decided to give them a tad over 9 foot pounds (Haynes manual  says 6-9 for M6 bolts). It improved a little, but they still slightly "leak", and I'm not torquing them anymore. I don't need that headache. The whole coolant + timing belts = snap is what put me here to begin with.

This is why I decided not to install the front covers until I know for sure it's ok- just in case. I'm super glad I have that flywheel tool since it will make putting it all back together when it's right not so tough.

Any suggestions for options to get these to seal up? I installed the paper gasket dry, as that is what Aisin specifically says to do. The gasket is a nice quality gasket, so I don't think it's that. I THINK I have a little pitting on the edge of the 12:00 bolt hole, but not the 10:00. Anybody use a straight RTV bead with NO gasket? I'll get a new Subaru gasket with/without a non-silicone sealer if necessary, but if I can substitute all of that with a gasket maker, that's fine too. Anybody done that?

Thanks!

Edited November 30, 2020 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

I used to use a very thin film of RTV on both sides of the gasket, as a sealer.  Do not use so much that it oozes out into the cooling system. 

The bolts should not be in contact with coolant.   The holes should be blind. 

[idosubaru]

11 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

So about those water pump bolts...heh  . Now I know why there was sealant of some kind clogging up the threads.

I have things back together (not the covers, thankfully yet), I know the car will run as it started right up, but.. I have seepage/leak from the 10:00 and 12:00 water pump bolts with the car just sitting after merely filling the rad. I torqued them all around 7.0-8 ft. lbs before adding coolant, and yes, I torqued them in a star pattern. I also cleaned the mating surfaces REALLY well.

After adding coolant, and seeing the slight leak, I decided to give them a tad over 9 foot pounds (Haynes manual  says 6-9 for M6 bolts). It improved a little, but they still slightly "leak", and I'm not torquing them anymore. I don't need that headache. The whole coolant + timing belts = snap is what put me here to begin with.

This is why I decided not to install the front covers until I know for sure it's ok- just in case. I'm super glad I have that flywheel tool since it will make putting it all back together when it's right not so tough.

Any suggestions for options to get these to seal up? I installed the paper gasket dry, as that is what Aisin specifically says to do. The gasket is a nice quality gasket, so I don't think it's that. I THINK I have a little pitting on the edge of the 12:00 bolt hole, but not the 10:00. Anybody use a straight RTV bead with NO gasket? I'll get a new Subaru gasket with/without a non-silicone sealer if necessary, but if I can substitute all of that with a gasket maker, that's fine too. Anybody done that?

Thanks!

I've had this happen before. 

1. smooth the mating surface with fine grit sand paper.  check the water pump too just in case it got knicked.  If you think you got it smooth, addressed the problem area then reinstall dry. 

2. if that doesn't work or you're uncertain, I use permatex water pump sealant on both sides of the gasket.  Just follow the directions - it can be used alone or with a gasket.   Or just skip trying a dry gasket if you don't want to go back in there again. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by idosubaru

[subaru1988]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

I've had this happen before. 

1. smooth the mating surface with fine grit sand paper.  check the water pump too just in case it got knicked.  If you think you got it smooth, addressed the problem area then reinstall dry. 

2. if that doesn't work or you're uncertain, I use permatex water pump sealant on both sides of the gasket.  Just follow the directions - it can be used alone or with a gasket.   Or just skip trying a dry gasket if you don't want to go back in there again. 

Thanks for the reply! I guess the Aisin instructions are for the best case scenario. I know about that Permatex water pump product, and I really debated about using it. I thought I'd defer to the actual instructions that came with the pump and on their "Aisin University" video, but that didn't work out so hot.

I guess what I'll do is get a new Fel-Pro gasket and use the sealant together. I've always done well with Fel-Pro on other stuff. I know people say the OEM gasket is the best, but if I'm going to use sealant on it to make up for block imperfections, what's the difference. I can't get it right away, and frankly, I'm sick of waiting for parts to come in the mail. I can source the Fel-Pro locally.

Edited November 30, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

10 minutes ago, subaru1988 said:

Thanks for the reply! I guess the Aisin instructions are for the best case scenario. I know about that Permatex water pump product, and I really debated about using it. I thought I'd defer to the actual instructions that came with the pump and on their "Aisin University" video, but that didn't work out so hot.

I guess what I'll do is get a new Fel-Pro gasket and use the sealant together. I've always done well with Fel-Pro on other stuff. I know people say the OEM gasket is the best, but if I'm going to use sealant on it to make up for block imperfections, what's the difference. I can't get it right away, and frankly, I'm sick of waiting for parts to come in the mail. I can source the Fel-Pro locally.

Yep, dry usually works, 2 in 10 might not. I've used that stuff only a couple times over many EA/ER engines.

Aftermarket gaskets are thin as frog hair and suck. You're right, I've used them with a coating and they will work but avoid them most of the time. 

[DaveT]

The only gaskets I really worry about OEM for are the intake manifold gaskets.   They are completely different and better than aftermarket cardboard like ones, even Fel-pro. 

[subaru1988]

12 hours ago, DaveT said:

The only gaskets I really worry about OEM for are the intake manifold gaskets.   They are completely different and better than aftermarket cardboard like ones, even Fel-pro. 

Good tip, thanks.

23 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Yep, dry usually works, 2 in 10 might not. I've used that stuff only a couple times over many EA/ER engines.

Aftermarket gaskets are thin as frog hair and suck. You're right, I've used them with a coating and they will work but avoid them most of the time. 

I've seen some bad ones with water pumps for other cars. IMHO, the one I received with the Aisin pump was a "Subaru" gasket or at least the equivalent. It looks exactly like the OE gasket, right down to the color. Unfortunately, it didn't work right.

I watched a few Subaru water pump videos on Youtube, and it made me wonder. The EJ? and other engines use 10mm water pump bolts, BUT they are flanged bolts from what it looks like. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but I'm wondering if new bolts are worth a try. Mine are OK, but the threads have a little wear here and there. Then again, as mentioned long ago in my thread, the bolts do NOT (well, should not) contact the coolant in any way.

I did a search and I haven't seen anybody really say they've used just the RTV by itself with no gasket for water pumps. I know doing that seems out of the norm, but I can't be the only one who needs to compensate somehow for block "wear".

Edited December 1, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

3 minutes ago, subaru1988 said:

Good tip, thanks.

I've seen some bad ones with water pumps for other cars. IMHO, the one I received with the Aisin pump was a "Subaru" gasket or at least the equivalent. It looks exactly like the OE gasket, right down to the color. Unfortunately, it didn't work right.

I watched a few Subaru water pump videos on Youtube, and it made me wonder. The EJ? and other engines use 10mm water pump bolts, BUT they are flanged bolts from what it looks like. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, but I'm wondering if new bolts are worth a try. Mine are OK, but the threads have a little wear here and there. Then again, as mentioned long ago in my thread, the bolts do NOT (well, should not) contact the coolant in any way.

I did a search and I haven't seen anybody really say they've used just the RTV by itself with no gasket for water pumps. I know doing that seems out of the norm, but I can't be the only one who needs to compensate somehow for block "wear".

I wonder if the mating surface for EJ pumps is wider than old gen. Yes Aisin is known to supply OEM pumps and gaskets. 

I’ve compensated for blocks 10X worse than yours. Coating the gasket does just that.  

There’s no reason not to coat a gasket since it’s a rather standard practice, but a bead of RTV would surely hold. I’m not sure why Subaru has never spec sealant for cooling components.  The pump will sit the gasket thickness closer to the engine, I doubt that matters.  My guess is the risk of using more, less forgiving smearing during install, getting it into the cooling system. With oil they use anaerobic at the factory, but in practice careful use of RTV is common.

[subaru1988]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

I wonder if the mating surface for EJ pumps is wider than old gen. Yes Aisin is known to supply OEM pumps and gaskets. 

I’ve compensated for blocks 10X worse than yours. Coating the gasket does just that.  

There’s no reason not to coat a gasket since it’s a rather standard practice, but a bead of RTV would surely hold. I’m not sure why Subaru has never spec sealant for cooling components.  The pump will sit the gasket thickness closer to the engine, I doubt that matters.  My guess is the risk of using more, less forgiving smearing during install, getting it into the cooling system. With oil they use anaerobic at the factory, but in practice careful use of RTV is common.

The 9 ft.lbs I wound up trying came from one of the EJ videos I watched. They were still 10mm bolts, yet they looked different in that they had a wider head. I'm glad to hear that you've worked on some beat blocks and still had them seal up. I know I can get it, it's just getting the right combo. The paper gasket should have worked, as you stated earlier, but time for plan B. Other than that, I would be driving the car as of yesterday with the timing belt job, new radiator (not exactly a drop in fit, FWIW!), and new water pump done.

I think you're onto something with the whole RTV smearing deal. I guess it's the whole trying to compensate for the "if a little is good, more must be better" attitude. If I do use the gasket AND the sealer, I'll smear just enough on to cover the gasket on both sides and that's it. The sealer by itself, I guess a 1/8 bead is enough.

Thanks for the input here and early on, it's must appreciated.

Edited December 1, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

Yeah man good luck.  Probably a minor imperfection.

i repaired one water pump mating surface hacked up from drilling and work on seized/sheared bolt removals.  A good bit of metal missing and all cratered up like the moon.  

[DaveT]

I'd go with the gasket + thin coat of sealant.  IF you found some super strong bolts, that could deform the pump or gasket enough to seal dry, they would strip out the threads in the aluminum first.

[Step-a-toe]

I may sometimes use copper grease as an anti sieze agent.

Grease used to be sometimes used to help seal new head gaskets. Soap or clay based grease I can't say. I guess copper grease can act as a sealant on threads. I can't recall if any water pump bolts go through to coolant. Your leak is more component jointing than out threads?

[subaru1988]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:52 PM, idosubaru said:

Yeah man good luck.  Probably a minor imperfection.

i repaired one water pump mating surface hacked up from drilling and work on seized/sheared bolt removals.  A good bit of metal missing and all cratered up like the moon.  

Whoa..That  is bad. Guess there's hope for mine!

16 hours ago, DaveT said:

I'd go with the gasket + thin coat of sealant.  IF you found some super strong bolts, that could deform the pump or gasket enough to seal dry, they would strip out the threads in the aluminum first.

I wasn't going to overtorque new bolts, I was maybe just going to try some new ones. I was thinking the threads might just be a little worn. However, as Step-a-Toe suggests below, it's really a joining issue, not a thread issue. You said earlier that the threads do NOT go through to the coolant, and I verified that myself when I cleaned out the bolt holes. 

I saw in the Haynes manual I have that M6 is 6 to 9 foot lbs of torque, so I gave 9 a shot, and it helped some but not enough. Next time with a thin coat of sealant on either side of a new gasket, I'll be back to 7.5 or so as you suggested earlier. I don't think 6 is enough torque for a water pump, and 9 didn't work, and trying more isn't worth the risk.

1 hour ago, Step-a-toe said:

I may sometimes use copper grease as an anti sieze agent.

Grease used to be sometimes used to help seal new head gaskets. Soap or clay based grease I can't say. I guess copper grease can act as a sealant on threads. I can't recall if any water pump bolts go through to coolant. Your leak is more component jointing than out threads?

You're right. The bolts don't go in to any coolant, so somewhere the coolant is getting to the bolts from around the gasket. I wondered why the garage that last did the water pump had RTV on the bolt threads, and now I know. Not so sure they had to use so much when others can simply use the dry gasket, so I'll try the happy medium with the sealer.

[idosubaru]

maybe they didn’t RTV the holes intentionally but ran a bead and some got into the holes where it was then run down the length of the bolt threads during tightening.  The thickness between the pump and block is minuscule so most of a bead is going to get pushed out of the contact area of the mating surfaces.

How do you know a shop did the last water pump?  How long ago was it? 

Were any of the bolt holes helicoiled or timeserted?  Seems unlikely but if a bolt sheared off and someone tried to repair it there could be something else going on here.

proper torque also requires accurate equipment and clean and lubricated block and bolt threads, and 90 degree force application. 

[subaru1988]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:29 AM, idosubaru said:

maybe they didn’t RTV the holes intentionally but ran a bead and some got into the holes where it was then run down the length of the bolt threads during tightening.  The thickness between the pump and block is minuscule so most of a bead is going to get pushed out of the contact area of the mating surfaces.

How do you know a shop did the last water pump?  How long ago was it? 

Were any of the bolt holes helicoiled or timeserted?  Seems unlikely but if a bolt sheared off and someone tried to repair it there could be something else going on here.

proper torque also requires accurate equipment and clean and lubricated block and bolt threads, and 90 degree force application. 

You're probably right about the RTV on the threads. From my understanding, if you have big pieces of it where it's not supposed to be, that may be too much. The way I see it is the gasket should be the barrier between the coolant and the threads, and it's not doing it..yet

No helicoils or any thread repair from what I see, and I know 100% that a mechanic did the last water pump at 178K. It must have been an OK job for lasting 80K. Sad part is the timing belts were done at 177K. The next timing belt was at 232K with no water pump AND no tensioners done- just the belts.  I have the receipts for most of it, and pretty much everything else starting at 10K, and it has 258K on it now.

I'm done with the timing belt part of this "project". It starts right up and seems to run OK for the 10 seconds I ran it a few times. All it is now is cleaning it up again, getting a good seal on that water pump, and putting it back together after verifying that it doesn't leak. I don't want any coolant on that belt.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

That’s great news then. Multiple previous pumps worked fine. Car has been a regular daily driver.  There was no preceding event , overheating, or repair or damage to compromise anything.

There isn’t even a small chance of something hard or surprising here.  

Normally there’s a causative event like prior mechanic damage, front end damage, sat for years and lots of corrosion and uneven surfaces, or an ancient water pump that’s just been in place for an inordinate amount of time.

Youre literally striking out on every possible compromising possibility.

The only thing that changed was the water pump and gasket.  I would verify the pump mating surface isn’t damaged or knicked. 

If it’s good then Obviously there’s nothing wrong here.

My guess is this is a nonissue. there was a slight compromise during the install or gasket issue and simply cleaning the surfaces and an OEM gasket would fix this.  Add some RTV to the mix you’re definitely done.