Timing Belts/Kit '88 EA82 Tricks or Tips?

[subaru1988]

On 12/4/2020 at 1:36 PM, idosubaru said:

That’s great news then. Multiple previous pumps worked fine. Car has been a regular daily driver.  There was no preceding event , overheating, or repair or damage to compromise anything.

There isn’t even a small chance of something hard or surprising here.  

Normally there’s a causative event like prior mechanic damage, front end damage, sat for years and lots of corrosion and uneven surfaces, or an ancient water pump that’s just been in place for an inordinate amount of time.

Youre literally striking out on every possible compromising possibility.

The only thing that changed was the water pump and gasket.  I would verify the pump mating surface isn’t damaged or knicked. 

If it’s good then Obviously there’s nothing wrong here.

My guess is this is a nonissue. there was a slight compromise during the install or gasket issue and simply cleaning the surfaces and an OEM gasket would fix this.  Add some RTV to the mix you’re definitely done. 

There's just a little corrosion on the block, but it seems more staining than anything else. MAYBE  a few pits. Nothing obvious running my finger over it.

The pump surface is nice. It's looks to be a nice quality water pump.

I tried to keep the gasket in the right spot by using some small awls in two opposing holes. As I said, I used the gasket dry, so I had to have a way to keep the thing lined up as best I could. With a sealer, perhaps I can get it to stay in place better. I looked at my old gasket and I don't see anything obvious. When I put the new one on today, I did have to move it a little here and there to line up the holes, so I hope the sealer stayed even. I know some cars have aids to line it all up like nubs and studs....?

*Edit- Last time, I put 9 foot pounds on them to see if going from 7 to 9 would help, and they torqued down OK. I just used my old bolts again because they should NOT touch the coolant.

The bolts may have been a little overtorqued last attempt. As a matter of fact, I think the reason why the FSM doesn't state anything about the water pump bolt torque is that they expected you to use the "Torque Chart" for the engine and transmission. That says that an M6X1.0 bolt needs 4.3-5.1 foot pounds, so I did a little over 5 foot pounds and called it good. Maybe that's why my old pump's bolts seemed "loose" when I took it off. I guess if a bolt needed a different value, it would show it as it does the water pump pulley, etc.

Good to hear it should be an easy fix. It's on, and I hope it all works. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Edited December 5, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

Keeping the gasket in place is funny.  I usually partially insert a couple bolts to use as guide pins. Put pump/gasket/bolts up to block and like holes up.  That’s not necessarily easy either but that’s how I do them. 

[subaru1988]

6 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Keeping the gasket in place is funny.  I usually partially insert a couple bolts to use as guide pins. Put pump/gasket/bolts up to block and like holes up.  That’s not necessarily easy either but that’s how I do them. 

I had an M6X1.0 bolt from something else that had a bad head, so I cut the head off, threaded it in the short bolt hole, and I used my awl in the other hole to try to line it up. It still moved enough even with the sealer to feel resistance from the moved gasket hand threading the bolts until I propped the pump/gasket up a little to get the bolts more centered. It actually looks easy, but it wants to move around and that makes it tough. This was with the rad out and the grille off! To me, it's worth the extra 15 minutes to have a straight shot at it. It's 2 screws and 2 bolts.

I'm letting the sealer set up to give it the best chance, so we'll see.

[Ionstorm66]

I use blue rtv on mine and never had an issue. Once two surfaces with rtv touch, you want to let it set a bit before tightening. So I put rtv on the pump and put the gasket on. Let that set up for the time it says on the tube. Then apply rtv to the engine side, and place the pump on and torque down.

[subaru1988]

I had a little time today to give it a shot, and the 11:00 bolt is leaking. I put sealer on the pump and the block side of the gasket, and I let it sit for 24+ hours. I plugged up the bypass and put the water pipe on, and I poured coolant into the pipe to get the pump full. When it was leaking, I pulled that bolt out, and it was almost as if the bolt DID go in the water jacket. It was WET with coolant and like a little stream coming out of the hole.

This has me wondering if there is a flaw or some person (not me, as I stated WAY early in this, the threads & pump were loaded with RTV) overtightened that bolt and put a spot in that blind hold where coolant can enter. That hole, which leaked the last time, is right next to the water pump flow hole. The other explanation is that I somehow effed the gasket up, which after looking at it, I just don't see it. There was NO leak around the perimeter of the pump at all, and none at the 12:00 bolt this time. The other bolts were dry. That said, I'm going to get a few sacrificial bolts to line this gasket up with by acting as studs.

1) I'm using Permatex #2 as the gasket sealer; I've had good luck with it in the past. This time, I could try it on the threads. How much should I use on the threads? I've never had the need to seal threads before in a repair, and that includes an aluminum pump into an aluminum timing cover. Does it affect the bolt torque?

2)I had the original AISIN gasket on for less than 10 minutes with NO sealer. Is it possible to reuse it after it was wet with coolant if I coat it with a sealer? It's not damaged, it just got wet. It's dry now. I really don't think it should be necessary to buy a 5 pack of water pump gaskets. The Fel-Pro was oK, but of course coating it and waiting for the sealer to set destroyed it taking it off. I put the AISIN gasket on dry, torqued it down (too much, yes - up to 9lbs), saw the leak, and took it off. Would you use it?

Sucks, but it's one bolt and figuring out how the coolant is getting into the hole. I know this whole project should have been over with weeks ago, but it is what it is. It's literally all that's keeping the car off the road..the timing belt job works fine 

Edited December 7, 2020 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, subaru1988 said:

I had a little time today to give it a shot, and the 11:00 bolt is leaking. I put sealer on the pump and the block side of the gasket, and I let it sit for 24+ hours. I plugged up the bypass and put the water pipe on, and I poured coolant into the pipe to get the pump full. When it was leaking, I pulled that bolt out, and it was almost as if the bolt DID go in the water jacket. It was WET with coolant and like a little stream coming out of the hole.

This has me wondering if there is a flaw or some person (not me, as I stated WAY early in this, the threads & pump were loaded with RTV) overtightened that bolt and put a spot in that blind hold where coolant can enter. That hole, which leaked the last time, is right next to the water pump flow hole. The other explanation is that I somehow effed the gasket up, which after looking at it, I just don't see it. There was NO leak around the perimeter of the pump at all, and none at the 12:00 bolt this time. The other bolts were dry. That said, I'm going to get a few sacrificial bolts to line this gasket up with by acting as studs.

1) I'm using Permatex #2 as the gasket sealer; I've had good luck with it in the past. This time, I could try it on the threads. How much should I use on the threads? I've never had the need to seal threads before in a repair, and that includes an aluminum pump into an aluminum timing cover. Does it affect the bolt torque?

2)I had the original AISIN gasket on for less than 10 minutes with NO sealer. Is it possible to reuse it after it was wet with coolant if I coat it with a sealer? It's not damaged, it just got wet. It's dry now. I really don't think it should be necessary to buy a 5 pack of water pump gaskets. The Fel-Pro was oK, but of course coating it and waiting for the sealer to set destroyed it taking it off. I put the AISIN gasket on dry, torqued it down (too much, yes - up to 9lbs), saw the leak, and took it off. Would you use it?

Sucks, but it's one bolt and figuring out how the coolant is getting into the hole. I know this whole project should have been over with weeks ago, but it is what it is. It's literally all that's keeping the car off the road..the timing belt job works fine 

 

Wow, that make for a huge eye roll. Hey, great job finding out what's going on here.  That suggests the gobbed up RTV wasn't just someone overapplying RTV - but addressing the same issue. 

Either someone damaged that bolt hole with a drill or you have a very rare casting imperfection.  It's very rare - but there can be porous parts of the block that just leak, even parts of the block that are barren of any other part or bolt hole.  

Can you determine if it's leaking from the bolt hole itself? 

Coolant isn't under that much pressure - I'd clean it up, get some sealant down that bolt hole, on the bolt threads, and on the gasket as you already did. 

[subaru1988]

5 hours ago, idosubaru said:

 

Wow, that make for a huge eye roll. Hey, great job finding out what's going on here.  That suggests the gobbed up RTV wasn't just someone overapplying RTV - but addressing the same issue. 

Either someone damaged that bolt hole with a drill or you have a very rare casting imperfection.  It's very rare - but there can be porous parts of the block that just leak, even parts of the block that are barren of any other part or bolt hole.  

Can you determine if it's leaking from the bolt hole itself? 

Coolant isn't under that much pressure - I'd clean it up, get some sealant down that bolt hole, on the bolt threads, and on the gasket as you already did. 

Yea, it sure is frustrating . I wondered why there was silicone on the threads. At the time I posted that, I had no clue whether those bolts went into the "water jacket" or what. It was on ALL the threads, so that's what I'm going to do too for purposes of tightening the bolts. I guess you put just enough sealer to fill the spaces between the threads. I'll go about halfway up since 75% of the bolt is in the water pump and not screwed into anything.

I'm not sure what's going on with that hole. I can poke the back of the hole with a toothpick, but I can't feel anything. It does bottom out. I'm just going to treat it like it goes through. It's right next to the channel for the flow @ 11:00. Maybe it's the way I put the gasket on, I just don't know.

I'm going to clean it all AGAIN, and go from there. Since I'm using sealant, I'm just going to reuse the gasket that I put on dry. I evidently bought the last new gasket in town, and that Aisin gasket frankly doesn't look bad at all. It wasn't even on there for 5 minutes. If it doesn't work, that's on me.

It's not like I'm installing all the parts and taking them all off. I have a way I'm testing it, as I stated before. The pipe O-ring is the only thing that goes on and off, and I'm dunking that in coolant before installing, so hopefully it holds up. It doesn't leak.

[idosubaru]

11 minutes ago, subaru1988 said:

Yea, it sure is frustrating . I wondered why there was silicone on the threads. 

Nearly anyone would have assumed it was a common example of “more is better” exuberance. Sounds conspiratorial to be convinced that excess sealant means some outlier odd block problem. 

good luck - I hope the next round slams dunk this beast!  Let us know. 

[GeneralDisorder]

It's not uncommon to encounter mounting points that are open to cooling jackets. On Chevy Small Blocks for instance, ALL the water pump mounting holes, and ALL the head bolts are open to the cooling jackets.... by design. That's just how the castings are made. 

So you apply sealer. Most guys use Permatex teflon thread sealant. When that is even troublesome there are some things like the Subaru Coolant Conditioner that can help seal them from the inside. It works a LOT better than you expect it to. 

GD

[subaru1988]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:42 PM, GeneralDisorder said:

It's not uncommon to encounter mounting points that are open to cooling jackets. On Chevy Small Blocks for instance, ALL the water pump mounting holes, and ALL the head bolts are open to the cooling jackets.... by design. That's just how the castings are made. 

So you apply sealer. Most guys use Permatex teflon thread sealant. When that is even troublesome there are some things like the Subaru Coolant Conditioner that can help seal them from the inside. It works a LOT better than you expect it to. 

GD

I'm familiar with SBC's and that's the reason why all the RTV on the water pump threads gave me pause about maybe having holes that went into the coolant. I just chocked it up to the last guy going crazy with it like Idosubaru suggested, as pieces of it were hanging off the side of the pump. I also found pieces in the coolant when I drained it.

The old school way of sealing SBC bolts, head bolts in particular, is Permatex #2, and that's why I'm familiar with it. If it can seal those bolts, it can surely seal a little M6 bolt. I thought about using some Bar's Leaks tablets, which I've had great success with in the past, but sometimes it takes time to work, and coolant leaking over belts is what put me in this mess in the first place. I'd like to get "right". Maybe I'm too paranoid about the belts now that I've gone through this whole process 

We''ll see what happens...*Edit- After a few very small turns of the bolts to creep up on  a higher torque, I have it down to barely a seep, if that. That's good enough for me, so it's going back together. If it needs help, it's either a crushed up Bar's leak pellet which I have good luck with in the past, or the Subaru stuff. I'm hoping it will stay OK and not need any of that.

Edited December 20, 2020 by subaru1988
Update the situation..