Timing verification 09 Tribeca H6 - I have FSM but Im slightly confused

[NewRedSun]

So I did a full top end rebuild with heads rebuilt. I got the FSM and I did what it says.

Says to Have the crank mark at 9-oclock, then make sure all cams are at 12-oclock ( though I think one was out of this when i pulled it off but im a bit foggy as I took my time on the project, whether it moved post chain removal or not idk.

But then after the cams it says, NOTE: crank at 3-oclock. So I moved it there from the pervious .

Long story short, I did my best translation and did as the manual states but the car is not right.
It does not start fast like it should and run obviously rough. So I think since it runs it has to out but not horribly to rip its self apart, Im not happy at following the FSM and nit having it right so If i could just get a confirmation that would help me out before I remove the cover again and go at it.

I included what I see.

Thank you for reading and any help would be fantastic. - David

[idosubaru]

15 hours ago, NewRedSun said:

Says to Have the crank mark at 9-oclock, then make sure all cams are at 12-oclock ( though I think one was out of this when i pulled it off but im a bit foggy as I took my time on the project, whether it moved post chain removal or not idk.

But then after the cams it says, NOTE: crank at 3-oclock. So I moved it there from the pervious .
 

Chains are installed with timing mark at 12 noon.  Did you "move it there" before, or after, installing the chains?  If before installing the chains, it's wrong. 

 

15 hours ago, NewRedSun said:

But then after the cams it says, NOTE: crank at 3-oclock.

It says the "crank key"....not "the crank", nor does it mean the "crank mark" which is the sole reference point for the timing chain.  if you moved the crank timing mark to where it's showing the crank key to be, then it's wrong.  Even in the note about 3-oclock it still shows the crank mark (the dot at "A") at noon. 

Part of me hopes I'm wrong but maybe if you come out of this without valve damage it at least won't be a phantom issue to chase. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by idosubaru

[idosubaru]

people have done timing chain covers and water pumps and probably chains before in the vehicle, so there's a chance you could avoid pulling the engine.  i've always had H6 engines out so i'm unsure on specifics but it would certainly be tight.  definitely take the radiator out. 

[Rampage]

I think the reason they want the crank "dot" at 9 o'clock when you first start is so all of the pistons are away from the top of the cylinders. That way you can turn the cam sprockets to 12 o'clock and the valves will not hit the pistons. Some of the valves will be open. After the cams are set, you turn the crank "dot" to 12 o'clock and install the chains.

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Rampage said:

I think the reason they want the crank "dot" at 9 o'clock when you first start is so all of the pistons are away from the top of the cylinders. That way you can turn the cam sprockets to 12 o'clock and the valves will not hit the pistons. Some of the valves will be open. After the cams are set, you turn the crank "dot" to 12 o'clock and install the chains.

Yep.  Preventative CYA routine to cover scenarios where the cams are questionably oriented. 

[NewRedSun]

thank you.  I was in that line of thinking about now but just wanted another voice to be sane.  I have done all the head work pulling them off with the motor in.  to do it again I'd definitely get a helper and pull it as it was cramped as hell and caused more stress adding room for error.  I did rotate the motor by hand and didn't feel anything but I am hoping all is good as well.  also I'm hoping I actually fix the problem... later i heard these don't really loose head gaskets much but crack the head.. i hope not cuz with over 200,000 the oil/antifreeze seemed plausible for gasket at that age.  i should have invested in material and tools to test them.  Thank you very much for the replies.  I'm new to Subarus, and i can say I see quality... different but quality.  i hope it's got more left.  though I'm thinking of a catch can next cuz what i saw in the intake runners and behind valves was crazy.  but she's old and tired. -David

[NewRedSun]

On 9/30/2020 at 7:48 AM, idosubaru said:

Chains are installed with timing mark at 12 noon.  Did you "move it there" before, or after, installing the chains?  If before installing the chains, it's wrong. 

I had as first picture, installed cams as close as possible.  then when caps were tight I looked them up. then chains, then moved the DOT from 9 oclock to 12 which puts key from 12 to 3 oclock.  so i definitely need to look at the sprocket where the chains meet, I flew over something overthinking.  I'm betting on the bottom sprocket i failed to notice that not all chain links are inline... Thank you for the insights.

Edited October 2, 2020 by NewRedSun
forgot some details

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, NewRedSun said:

thank you.  I was in that line of thinking about now but just wanted another voice to be sane.  I have done all the head work pulling them off with the motor in.  to do it again I'd definitely get a helper and pull it as it was cramped as hell and caused more stress adding room for error.  I did rotate the motor by hand and didn't feel anything but I am hoping all is good as well.  also I'm hoping I actually fix the problem... later i heard these don't really loose head gaskets much but crack the head.. i hope not cuz with over 200,000 the oil/antifreeze seemed plausible for gasket at that age.  i should have invested in material and tools to test them.  Thank you very much for the replies.  I'm new to Subarus, and i can say I see quality... different but quality.  i hope it's got more left.  though I'm thinking of a catch can next cuz what i saw in the intake runners and behind valves was crazy.  but she's old and tired. -David

You pulled heads with engine in the car? Wow, good effort! H6s are cumbersome and lots of effort in the vehicle. 
 

Subaru H6 engines do ocassionally loose head gaskets.  usually at higher miles and seemingly less frequently than 4 cylinders. Some of that lower frequency is because there are far fewer H6s than H4 Subaru’s around. some people will think H6s are less prone to heasgaskets than they are because of the smaller sample size.  Some shops works on tons of 4 cylinders and don’t see many 6.  
 

Internal oil - replace PVC valve with OEM frequently.  But yeah at 200k it’s likely to not be perfect and any extended oil changes, overheating, and/or not using synthetic can cause sticking control rings and increase blow by. It shouldn’t be a sign of any issues. Just keep checking your oil level. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by idosubaru

[NewRedSun]

Thanks, I'll find out today if there was any damage.  I'm just concerned more because i rebuilt the heads with new valves, seals and o rings and whatever gaskets came with the top end kit.  my first head work and I'm kind internally hurting at the possibility or wrecking all the work.  learning takes work though i guess lol.

[idosubaru]

18 minutes ago, NewRedSun said:

Thanks, I'll find out today if there was any damage.  I'm just concerned more because i rebuilt the heads with new valves, seals and o rings and whatever gaskets came with the top end kit.  my first head work and I'm kind internally hurting at the possibility or wrecking all the work.  learning takes work though i guess lol.

Let's not borrow problems from the future, let's hope it's all good until we know otherwise.  Good luck finding good news.   And yes learning takes work, or 'if you're not failing, you're not trying'. 

[NewRedSun]

Thanks for the positivity.  i over think a lot so it's refreshing to read some sensibility.  so i pulled the cover and everything was fine.  i almost started dying inside thinking i wonked something in the heads but then i decided to recheck all sensor connectors.... passenger side intake position sensor plug was hiding and unplugged.  That sweet amazing stupidity feeling, while embarrassing, is feeling much better than trashing my girlfriend's ride :-)  so i just have to clean up the cover, install timing again refill and go forward with life again.  thanks a lot to all who responded and to the forum itself.  it is clear that i need more light in my work area. but I'll still happy. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by NewRedSun

[idosubaru]

8 hours ago, NewRedSun said:

Thanks for the positivity.  i over think a lot so it's refreshing to read some sensibility.  so i pulled the cover and everything was fine.  i almost started dying inside thinking i wonked something in the heads but then i decided to recheck all sensor connectors.... passenger side intake position sensor plug was hiding and unplugged.  That sweet amazing stupidity feeling, while embarrassing, is feeling much better than trashing my girlfriend's ride :-)  so i just have to clean up the cover, install timing again refill and go forward with life again.  thanks a lot to all who responded and to the forum itself.  it is clear that i need more light in my work area. but I'll still happy. 

awesome. That’s a great feeling. I do it too. The thing that helps you succeed is also the thing that can tear you down. Analysis paralysis.