Help me decide

[nipper]

I'm looking for off lease, still with some warranty, 2017 or 2018. I just put $$$ into my 05 (timing belt etc) so we are talking spring. The new ones havnt changed much from 2017 so ill let someone else take the depreciation hit

[brus brother]

Latest MY changeover was 2020.

Notable that SOA provided extended CVT warranties on up to and including the 2017s up to 8 yrs. 100K miles.

The original drive train is 5 yrs. 60K.

The 3 year 36 bumper to bumper would likely be gone by summer for the 2017s unless it was a later year purchase.

Always a crap shoot but a trusted tech suggested that if considering an extended warranty that it MUST include the electronics i.e. infotainment panel.

That or bank the $ and take a chance.

It sounds like you're treating your current ride right so... keep on truckin' 

 

[nipper]

I hate modern infotainment systems but the subaru one seems the least intrusive and doesn't intevrate hvac controls. I hate that. I actually watched a sooby car review where the host complained they should be integrated. Hell no.  

Also I have a neurological issue which is why I went off the radar.  I need buttons not touch screens with small icons. This has left me depressed enough as it is.

[Rampage]

15 hours ago, nipper said:

I need buttons not touch screens with small icons.

Same here. I work on computers and me and touch screens and touch pads do not get along at all. I hate them. Have to plug in a mouse to work on them. Can't do that with a car.

[nipper]

Thats my biggest disappointment with Tesla and many new cars.

[idosubaru]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:36 PM, nipper said:

I go camping up in PA and Upstate NY I think the 6 would be handy, but if the price premium is crazy ill go with the 4

Depends what you’re towing too.  For most people choosing to tow they’re going to size it appropriately and a 4 will do fine.

If you’re pushing weight/temp/grade limits, the same weight can pull like a parachute or smooth.  Subarus are shorter than most trucks, tall loads can drag bad if they’re considerably higher than the vehicle.  That’s not a big deal until you’re approaching or exceeding limits - weight/temp/grades. 

[idosubaru]

good luck nip!

Edited October 14, 2020 by idosubaru

[nipper]

32 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

Depends what you’re towing too.  For most people choosing to tow they’re going to size it appropriately and a 4 will do fine.

If you’re pushing weight/temp/grade limits, the same weight can pull like a parachute or smooth.  Subarus are shorter than most trucks, tall loads can drag bad if they’re considerably higher than the vehicle.  That’s not a big deal until you’re approaching or exceeding limits - weight/temp/grades. 

Sadly its just me and the dog, so it would be a low profile tear drop camper

[idosubaru]

4 minutes ago, nipper said:

Sadly its just me and the dog, so it would be a low profile tear drop camper

Great, either one is a great fit then. 

[nipper]

2 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

Great, either one is a great fit then. 

And every subaru I ever owned gets a transmission cooler.

[otondent]

I've also suffered from anxiety and depression myself since the pandemic started. Hope you find the vehicle that you're planning to purchase, soon. 

[jonbfish]

On 10/12/2020 at 12:53 PM, idosubaru said:

05-09s kind of suck relative to other years. They’re struts, power steering are garbage compared to 00-04s. Any 05-09 I get I can assume those trash items will need replaced, and it’s not like they’re any better in some way that makes it a trade off. 00-04 (or baja) struts are commonly installed as upgrades (direct swap) over 05-09s struts.  and plan on $300 OEM steering pump or replacing aftermarket a few times to get a good new one. Wheel bearings are also more likely to fail.  Those aren’t big deals and easily remedied in a way but they have no advantage to 00-04s....except they are newer.

If it were for my family/friends I’d get a nice low mileage 00-04 southern/western rust free 03-04 Outback all day long over a lower grade 05-09.  Fly or have it shipped - do whatever you need. I shipped a Forester like 400 miles this summer for like $350. Dirt cheap and expands my range for a better deal in the end. 

Or spring for a 2017+.  In between is no mans land. Limited advantages for a little lower maintenance and reliability.  

Thanks for the discussion all, it is useful to have all these opinions in one thread. I was lucky to find another nice 98 a couple years ago, but the rust is starting to take hold. I would love to find a rust free, low mileage 00-04; do those still exist? LOL. What is the consensus on when the rusting issues were properly addressed? I see a lot in the midwest that have the spots over the rear wheels. I guess I'm not sure if mine had some lurking below the surface, or if it was just ineveitable here without a garage to keep it in, I want my next one to last a long time and outside of some of the issues discussed rust seems to be the limiting factor.

Nipper - It sounds like you are down right now, but I have to say rolling around camping with a teardrop and a dog doesn't sound all bad. Good to see you around.

[nipper]

10 minutes ago, otondent said:

I've also suffered from anxiety and depression myself since the pandemic started. Hope you find the vehicle that you're planning to purchase, soon. 

Ive been isolating since way before the panademic (bed bound mother, my own issues) so I've been telling people welcome to my world. 

[nipper]

1 minute ago, jonbfish said:

Thanks for the discussion all, it is useful to have all these opinions in one thread. I was lucky to find another nice 98 a couple years ago, but the rust is starting to take hold. I would love to find a rust free, low mileage 00-04; do those still exist? LOL. What is the consensus on when the rusting issues were properly addressed? I see a lot in the midwest that have the spots over the rear wheels. I guess I'm not sure if mine had some lurking below the surface, or if it was just ineveitable here without a garage to keep it in, I want my next one to last a long time and outside of some of the issues discussed rust seems to be the limiting factor.

Nipper - It sounds like you are down right now, but I have to say rolling around camping with a teardrop and a dog doesn't sound all bad. Good to see you around.

Im still a big fan of tents, just im tired of the teardown (set up is easy). 

[softroader]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:53 AM, idosubaru said:

05-09s kind of suck relative to other years. They’re struts, power steering are garbage compared to 00-04s. Any 05-09 I get I can assume those trash items will need replaced, and it’s not like they’re any better in some way that makes it a trade off. 00-04 (or baja) struts are commonly installed as upgrades (direct swap) over 05-09s struts.  and plan on $300 OEM steering pump or replacing aftermarket a few times to get a good new one. Wheel bearings are also more likely to fail.  Those aren’t big deals and easily remedied in a way but they have no advantage to 00-04s....except they are newer.

If it were for my family/friends I’d get a nice low mileage 00-04 southern/western rust free 03-04 Outback all day long over a lower grade 05-09.  Fly or have it shipped - do whatever you need. I shipped a Forester like 400 miles this summer for like $350. Dirt cheap and expands my range for a better deal in the end.

Do the 00-04 Outbacks use the EJ251 engine?  Wikipedia says "The EJ251 was soon replaced by the EJ253 in many models due to its improved cooling to aid in head gasket life and improved engine management and sensors. The EJ251 commonly experienced head gasket failures resulting in interior channel breaches or exterior fluid leaks due to the continued use of a single layer coated gasket first introduced on the EJ25D."

I'm looking for an 01-04 Outback (my first Subaru, and I'm just beginning to learn about them) but this worries me.  Does replacing the EJ251 head gaskets with the MLS gaskets fix this problem?  If it does I'll just do that when it comes up.  Also concerned about the 7mm oil pumps that GD routinely replaces with a 10mm, does the EJ251 have this, and is the replacement easy to do?  I want nothing to do with the 2005+ CANBUS Outbacks, too fragile.

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, jonbfish said:

What is the consensus on when the rusting issues were properly addressed?

It's not like that.  This isn't a "subaru problem", with a few minor caveats I'll get to in a moment.  Rust is about exposure to caustic chemicals used all across the northeast, midwest, and a few areas out west (apparently yours, or your car came from somewhere else that did in the past).  Year/make/model is not the right question to avoid rusty Subarus.  That's why there are plenty of rust free old Subaru's out west and down south. 

There are a few variables like minor weather advantages, Subaru's are low to the ground so are closer to caustic chemicals and have tight unibody parts that hold them better/longer. And they are simply USED in the snow, and see caustic chemicals. Very few Subaru owners avoid snow or have a 2nd vehicle for winter driving like german car or garage queen truck/jeeps.  But those aren't a big deal - it's mostly about exposure to caustic chemicals which can be avoided if you search down south and out west like Portland, Seattle, Colorado, and see 1980's and 90's Subaru's with zero rust. 

 

1 hour ago, softroader said:

Do the 00-04 Outbacks use the EJ251 engine?  Wikipedia says "The EJ251 was soon replaced by the EJ253 in many models due to its improved cooling to aid in head gasket life and improved engine management and sensors. The EJ251 commonly experienced head gasket failures resulting in interior channel breaches or exterior fluid leaks due to the continued use of a single layer coated gasket first introduced on the EJ25D."

I'm looking for an 01-04 Outback (my first Subaru, and I'm just beginning to learn about them) but this worries me.  Does replacing the EJ251 head gaskets with the MLS gaskets fix this problem?  If it does I'll just do that when it comes up.  Also concerned about the 7mm oil pumps that GD routinely replaces with a 10mm, does the EJ251 have this, and is the replacement easy to do?  I want nothing to do with the 2005+ CANBUS Outbacks, too fragile.

it doesn't matter. Simply put - avoid the 1996-1999 DOHC's and all the rest are about the same in terms of practically considering cooling/headgaskets. 

Ej251/253 - The differences were minor 10 years ago and the nail is on that coffin 20 years later due to age.   The "EJ253 improved cooling" comment should be entirely ignored for a litany of reasons that I don't have time for and would require logically and statistically pointing out the absurdity of all the internet hypothesis, guesses, and anecdotal points over the decades that you'll see searching online. 

Factory installed gaskets usually leak externally so there's little chance of stranding events.  They usually leak externally and get worse over 10's of thousands of mile.  This means they aren't prone to multiple serious overheating events like the DOHC.  In those terms, and due to age, all the post DOHC EJ25's are practically the same when considering buying 15-20 year old ones. 

If they leak - use a Subaru MLS gasket, torque specs, resurface the heads, clean the block properly, and make sure all bolts and threads are clean and lubricated when torquing. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by idosubaru

[nipper]

22 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

It's not like that.  This isn't a "subaru problem", with a few minor caveats I'll get to in a moment.  Rust is about exposure to caustic chemicals used all across the northeast, midwest, and a few areas out west (apparently yours, or your car came from somewhere else that did in the past).  Year/make/model is not the right question to avoid rusty Subarus.  That's why there are plenty of rust free old Subaru's out west and down south. 

There are a few variables like minor weather advantages, Subaru's are low to the ground so are closer to caustic chemicals and have tight unibody parts that hold them better/longer. And they are simply USED in the snow, and see caustic chemicals. Very few Subaru owners avoid snow or have a 2nd vehicle for winter driving like german car or garage queen truck/jeeps.  But those aren't a big deal - it's mostly about exposure to caustic chemicals which can be avoided if you search down south and out west like Portland, Seattle, Colorado, and see 1980's and 90's Subaru's with zero rust. 

 

it doesn't matter. Simply put - avoid the 1996-1999 DOHC's and all the rest are about the same in terms of practically considering cooling/headgaskets. 

Ej251/253 - The differences were minor 10 years ago and the nail is on that coffin 20 years later due to age.   The "EJ253 improved cooling" comment should be entirely ignored for a litany of reasons that I don't have time for and would require logically and statistically pointing out the absurdity of all the internet hypothesis, guesses, and anecdotal points over the decades that you'll see searching online. 

Factory installed gaskets usually leak externally so there's little chance of stranding events.  They usually leak externally and get worse over 10's of thousands of mile.  This means they aren't prone to multiple serious overheating events like the DOHC.  In those terms, and due to age, all the post DOHC EJ25's are practically the same when considering buying 15-20 year old ones. 

If they leak - use a Subaru MLS gasket, torque specs, resurface the heads, clean the block properly, and make sure all bolts and threads are clean and lubricated when torquing. 

 

 

What he said. They arent rust prone except the 2nd generation tailgate handles were prone to rust (easy fix) and the third gen tailgate wire harness were prone to get streww cracks and fail (not an impossible fix).

DOHC engines as sexy as they sound, were a nightmare and engineed right up to the edge of failure, hence the HG issues.

If your looking at any car with miles and age on it, HG failure is a risk you take. Modern engines ask a lot of the HG, and if the cooling system isnt properly maintaned eventually it causes problems.

I would much rather have a weeping HG then a blown HG.

[softroader]

26 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

it doesn't matter. Simply put - avoid the 1996-1999 DOHC's and all the rest are about the same in terms of practically considering cooling/headgaskets.

Ej251/253 - The differences were minor 10 years ago and the nail is on that coffin 20 years later due to age. [...]

Factory installed gaskets usually leak externally so there's little chance of stranding events.  They usually leak externally and get worse over 10's of thousands of mile  [...]

Thank you.  When looking at a used Outback, other than the data plate under the hood which the engine might no longer match, is there an easy way to determine what engine is in there before buying it?  Do the DOHC EJ45 engines look different from the SOHC versions?

[nipper]

4 minutes ago, softroader said:

Thank you.  When looking at a used Outback, other than the data plate under the hood which the engine might no longer match, is there an easy way to determine what engine is in there before buying it?  Do the DOHC EJ45 engines look different from the SOHC versions?

Very. The timing belt covers are bigger. Also no one replaces a SOHC engine with a DOHC engine. Is always DOHC to single.

Edited October 14, 2020 by nipper

[softroader]

1 minute ago, nipper said:

Very. The timing belt covers are bigger.

Having not seen either one for 01-04 (I have only seen a 2007 EJ25 engine up close), what would I look for?

Edited October 14, 2020 by softroader
Add model years

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, softroader said:

Having not seen either one for 01-04 (I have only seen a 2007 EJ25 engine up close), what would I look for?

There are no DOHC EJ25s in those years. 
 

99 was their last year.  They don’t fit into 01+ easily and won’t run without modifications so that’s not a concern. 
 

the passengers and drivers side front timing covers have two HUGE circular impressions on them for DOHc.  All SOhC are smaller and don’t.  
 

google timing cover pictures if you’re not familiar. 
 

but again you’ll never see one in 2000+ subarus anyway. 

[softroader]

Thank you.  Any opinions on the 7mm oil pump issue?  Do these 01-04 EJ25 engines have it?

[nipper]

1 hour ago, softroader said:

Thank you.  Any opinions on the 7mm oil pump issue?  Do these 01-04 EJ25 engines have it?

Oil pump issue?

[el_freddo]

1 hour ago, softroader said:

Thank you.  Any opinions on the 7mm oil pump issue?  Do these 01-04 EJ25 engines have it?

It’s not really an issue. Just something GD replaces as a part of his major service that he does to provide a warranty he’s comfortable with. 

I’ve got two EJ251s in my family. Both high km, same oil pump from factory. Zero issues. Both have HGs swapped for the MLS units. 

Main “issue” now is regular maintenance such as oil changes (and filter), then the “big one” when the cam belt is due for replacement. Bloody good engine in my book - they cop loads of flak from the reputation of the EJ25D.

Cheers 

Bennie

[softroader]

4 hours ago, el_freddo said:

It’s not really an issue. Just something GD replaces as a part of his major service that he does to provide a warranty he’s comfortable with. [...] Bloody good engine in my book - they cop loads of flak from the reputation of the EJ25D.

Thanks Bennie.  Makes me a lot more comfortable with the EJ251.