2008 Outback XT 5EAT issues

[greenleg88]

Hello All, Its been several years since I've posted, but I come to you all for your wisdom.

Patient:
- 2008 outback XT limited, 5EAT, 157k miles, owned since ~152k miles

Symptoms:
- Transmission slipping, occasional hard shifts - RPMs rise when accelerating from a stop with non proportional increase in vehicle speed, bangs 2nd and 3rd gear sometimes.
- "Rubbing sound" when car is running and is put in reverse or drive etc.  Sound goes away when in park or neutral. The sound can be described as a light sand paper sound. May be the transmission bands slipping; I am not sure what the source of the sound is.
- AT Fluid Temp light illuminates at times. first time i saw this light was after about 3 miles of some very low speed off roading.
- Coolant Overheating on very large climb (3000ft, over 5 miles, in 90°+ heat) suspect partially related to ATF dumping heat into radiator.
- AT fluid temp light illuminated on a 3 mile trip around town, immediately after recent maintenance*.

Recent Maintenance:
- Timing belt, water pump, thermostat, 11MM Oil pump, coolant temp sensor, coolant (radiator out),
- Replaced ATF filter, refilled ATP to "full" mark using Subaru ATF while engine is running.
- Power steering pump, engine oil cooler gasket, brakes, other unrelated blah blah

My thoughts:
- Intention was to replace the ATF as part of this job as well, but to keep issues separate the ATF change will be performed later.
- Since the transmission was slipping prior to all the unrelated engine maintenance, (and only the ATF cooler and filter loop was opened, but refilled) the transmission should otherwise be slipping, heating up the flood, and shifting hard as it was prior to the radiator removal event. 

My questions:

1.  Any ideas as to what is causing the slipping?  
   •  I suspect slipping and hard shifting is somewhat separate, as the hard shifting could be due to something valve body related.
2. Should I proceed with a drain and replace of the ATF and return to full mark (while engine is running) or don't bother.
3. Am I looking at a potential torque converter, valve body assembly, full transmission replacement?

 

Thanks all! 

 

 

 

 

Related threads I've found:
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/171114-outback-5eat-vs-cvt/?tab=comments#comment-1417184 
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/170318-5eat-blown-transmission-cooler-fitting/?tab=comments#comment-1411338 
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/171001-fb25-engine-reliability/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-1417221
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/170658-transmission-engine-or-all-the-above/?tab=comments#comment-1413879
ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/170283-2005-turbo-xt-outback-exhaust-question/?tab=comments#comment-1411088
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/170283-2005-turbo-xt-outback-exhaust-question/?tab=comments#comment-1411071
https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/169577-05obxt-vs-03-forester/?tab=comments#comment-1405536

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by greenleg88

[idosubaru]

1. pull the AT code. Maybe the 2008s can flash the code for you with no tools/scanner? just using dash lights. Look up that procedure, if that doesn’t work it’ll need scanned, get the code. 

2. any current check engine lights?

3.  check the trans pan for dents or signs of recent replacement. It doesn’t take much. I’ve seen them dented restricting fluid flow, or signs of removal only to find cracked solenoids underneath - they are very close to the pan. 

4.  check subaru website for TSBs or notices about 2008 trans issues.  I’ve seen a 5EAT or two with valve body issues but I’m unsure of the symptoms or how to verify.

Usually you’re looking at a trans swap. I’ve never seen good diagnostic or symptom specific identification for Subaru TCs so most people aren’t going to guess for that much labor or cost.

That you just bought the vehicle suggests it was sold with known issues which is more likely to mean egregious issue over easy fix.  But of course you want to rule out and diagnosis.

The pre-CANBUS (before 2005) transmissions run in 3rd gear, locked 4WD, and no TC lock up if you unplug the trans harness or TCU.  It’s a helpful test or band aid to drive awhile and get around some drivability issues.  

I drove an XT6 (first 4EAT) like that for a year, too much body rust to warrant repairing. 

[greenleg88]

Thanks for the reply.

1. There is no indication of any kind of fault light on the dashboard. Are TCU fault codes typically hidden? or is it possible that there can be a code, but not displayed?  I only have an OBD2 reader, but I seem to remember the wifi/phone app version of the reader I've used before having a TCU reading feature. Or ill look into getting the FreeSSM software setup.

2. No current check engine lights.

3. A-ha! yeah there is a small dent, on the trans pan. I suspect from an off-roading incident. I was anticipating removal of the ATF oil pan in the future anyway,  I suppose i'll plan on replacing the pan when I get to that and inspecting for damage. The drain plug is also impressively seized in the pan anyway.

4. Didn't come across any TSBs on the Subaru website.  It seems as thought though their general recommendation for troublesome transmissions is to swap the entire valve body assembly, even if it may just simply be a solenoid or some other sensor. Pretty much along the lines of don't bother with diagnosing, just swap the whole thing.

Previous owner seemed generally open about most things, though I imagine would want to hide any transmission issues. I don't initially suspect this was a known issue prior to sale because all work was done at a shop with receipts. Though I imagine if the shop were to recommend a valve body replacement along with some of the other work I just did, that may have been the catalyst for sale. 

Transmission was slipping a bit and AT fluid overheated on one road trip, but was otherwise drivable;  the car really turned into a paperweight after it was reassembled, after the ATF fluid loop was opened during timing belt/radiator work. I'm wondering if topping off the fluid (some more? might not have cycled through the gears enough when filling) may be necessary, it is slipping quite egregiously right now. 

 

I will wait for further responses, but it sounds like I should plan on:
- Check for TCU codes
- Remove/replacing the AT oil pan, inspect for damage, replace fluid.

Edited October 16, 2020 by greenleg88

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, greenleg88 said:

 

1. There is no indication of any kind of fault light on the dashboard. Are TCU fault codes typically hidden? or is it possible that there can be a code, but not displayed? 

Correct -TCU codes aren't read by many OBDII scanners.  Some Subarus around the 00-08 time frame have a procedure you can go through which makes the AT light flash the code. First slow flashes are 10's digits, next fast flashes are 1's digits.  So 2 slow and 3 fast flashes are a 23.  

 

6 hours ago, greenleg88 said:

3. A-ha! yeah there is a small dent, on the trans pan. I suspect from an off-roading incident. I was anticipating removal of the ATF oil pan in the future anyway,  I suppose i'll plan on replacing the pan when I get to that and inspecting for damage. The drain plug is also impressively seized in the pan anyway.

Do that immediately.  Maybe you'll get lucky and see something obvious.  You could also assess the dent location compared to schematics of components adjacent to that area under the pan.  And/or test the circuits involved. 

Remove the pan and very carefully inspect all components under the pan - particularly by the area that's damaged.  I think the 5EAT's don't have any exposed solenoids like the 4EAT, so you'll most likely be checking wiring and connectors for insulation damage, cracking, impingement, etc, and making sure the dent isn't right under the uptake for the trans fluid.

"Small dent" is relative but often times I'd replace the pan. They're hard to repair and the long, thin mating surface lips are prone to deforming and not wanting to seal well when reinstalled, even when they're undamaged.  But it's just a pan you'll figure it out.

 

7 hours ago, greenleg88 said:

Previous owner seemed generally open about most things, though I imagine would want to hide any transmission issues. I don't initially suspect this was a known issue prior to sale because all work was done at a shop with receipts. Though I imagine if the shop were to recommend a valve body replacement along with some of the other work I just did, that may have been the catalyst for sale. 

Unless a causative incident happened since purchase it's nearly guaranteed the sale and trans issues are related.  Occams Razor, it's nearly certain.  I've bought 50 Subaru's, helped many others buy one, and looked at zillions more.....  But it also doesn't matter, we're looking forward not backwards. 

[idosubaru]

7 hours ago, greenleg88 said:

 

1. There is no indication of any kind of fault light on the dashboard. Are TCU fault codes typically hidden? or is it possible that there can be a code, but not displayed?  I only have an OBD2 reader, but I seem to remember the wifi/phone app version of the reader I've used before having a TCU reading feature. Or ill look into getting the FreeSSM software setup.

This might not work or be the correct one but the process for extracting codes for yours might look something like this.  Earlier trans have different procedures, so the process changes sometimes, but this might work for yours.   So this is more of an illustration...but it might work.  Either way, there's other info out there, this is just the first one I found. 

 

The Procedure

Starting condition: key off, headlight switch off.

Steps 1 through 7 must be performed within 10 seconds.

1. Turn key to ON position. This is the normal running position, the click just before starting, when all the lights on the dash come on, but before you twist to START. Don't start the engine!

2. Within 3 seconds, turn the headlight switch ON.

3. Press the Trip/Odometer button 4 times.

4. Turn the headlight switch OFF.

5. Press the Trip/Odometer button 4 times.

6. Turn headlight swtich ON.

7. Press Trip/Odometer button 4 times. At this point, the DTC display will begin.

8. Turn headlight switch OFF. Not necessary for the procedure, but your display may be dimmed and hard to read in bright sunlight. Besides, why drain the battery?

The DTCs for each module will display in order: ECM, TCM, ABSCM/VDCCM. Press the Trip/Odometer button to cycle between modules. The FSM states that the display will cycle between modules automatically every three seconds if the button is not pushed, but that did not happen in my car - I had to push the button to cycle the display.

For each module, there are three display states:
- Receiving DTC from module (blinking "P" or "C")
- DTC detected & displayed ("P" or "C" followed by 4 digits)
- No DTC found ("P" or "C" followed by "----")

If there is a CAN (Controller Area Network) bus communication error, you will see only "----" in the display. Basically, that means that the network in your car is broken. That will need to be repaired before anything else can be done.

[forester2002s]

5 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Unless a causative incident happened since purchase it's nearly guaranteed the sale and trans issues are related.  Occams Razor, it's nearly certain.  I've bought 50 Subaru's, helped many others buy one, and looked at zillions more.....  But it also doesn't matter, we're looking forward not backwards. 

+1

[greenleg88]

I still have to find the time to take the transmission pan off, but i was able to pull the TCU codes; No codes on the ECU, but the TCU had:

• P1817 - Sports Mode Switch Circuit (Manual Switch)

I didn't mention this in the original post, as its only happened 2 or 3 times, where when if I put the car into manual mode and shift the transmission then try to revert back into "D", the car remains in manual shift mode. Also something that happens is the I, S, and S# engine tune knob is a little unresponsive occasionally; i imagine this the symptom causing this code. I don't suspect that is related to the trans slipping though. 

I found a cold thread that described the symptoms I am experiencing but they had codes P0700, and P1718 whereas I did not see any active or temporary diagnostic trouble codes on my TCU. Upon reading more, it seems like a fault transmission fluid pressure switch could also cause similar problems as I'm experiencing.  Will post more another update once I pull the pan off.

 

[idosubaru]

did you look up the FSM diagnostic for that code?  It’s worth a glance.

TCUs can fail but usually they’re 20+ years old before they’re flaking out. 

[wtdash]

FWIW, I've noted on a couple of my past Subarus - and anecdotally online - that changing the fluid on a higher mileage car can induce symptoms of a failed/failing transmission as the 'new' ATF causes seals to leak. The old ATF and accumulated sludge creates a seal that prevents leaking and other issues- until it's changed out. It's usually due to a chemical or power flush, so in  your case - where it was just drained and refilled- I'm less confident it's related. Otherwise, you have useful info above to work thru. Good luck.

 

[greenleg88]

12 hours ago, idosubaru said:

did you look up the FSM diagnostic for that code?  It’s worth a glance.

TCUs can fail but usually they’re 20+ years old before they’re flaking out. 

Yeah, it seems to point at Body integrated unit (BIU) and then the gear shift selector.  Both of which I believe don't seem related to the real slipping issue. 

[nipper]

I dont need any fancy shmantzy (thats the technical term) scanners to tell you whats wrong. The tranny codes show any faults from the previous cycle of operation. 

 

Your not going to like it

And on top of everything else you have torque bind. The dsmage is done but I'm going to ask, do all the tires match?

[nipper]

8 hours ago, wtdash said:

FWIW, I've noted on a couple of my past Subarus - and anecdotally online - that changing the fluid on a higher mileage car can induce symptoms of a failed/failing transmission as the 'new' ATF causes seals to leak. The old ATF and accumulated sludge creates a seal that prevents leaking and other issues- until it's changed out. It's usually due to a chemical or power flush, so in  your case - where it was just drained and refilled- I'm less confident it's related. Otherwise, you have useful info above to work thru. Good luck.

 

Drain and fills are fine, power or chemical flushes very bad

[greenleg88]

On 10/20/2020 at 9:13 PM, nipper said:

I dont need any fancy shmantzy (thats the technical term) scanners to tell you whats wrong. The tranny codes show any faults from the previous cycle of operation. 

 

Your not going to like it

And on top of everything else you have torque bind. The dsmage is done but I'm going to ask, do all the tires match?

Thanks for the reply nipper.

If it shows the previous cycle, then that is very  odd because I haven’t had the sport shift mod error in at least 10 start/stop cycles and the most recent time the engine ran, I got the at temp light I  parked the car immediately and haven’t been driving it since. If a fault code  were to come up I would expect it to have been listed. 

-Could you elaborate more on what you think the problem is? 
-Also, how did you determine there is/was torque bind?  I’m quite sure you identified torque bind on my 98 legacy about 10 years ago, but this car feels nothing like that- just pure slipping.
 

Wheels and tires are all matching with very even tread wear .  The car did come with another set of wheels  that the previous owner said he took off right away, but that did have a difference of maybe 3/32 between front and rear. If any damage was done, I’d suspect it is possible from when those wheels and tires were in use. 

 

[nipper]

28 minutes ago, greenleg88 said:

Thanks for the reply nipper.

If it shows the previous cycle, then that is very  odd because I haven’t had the sport shift mod error in at least 10 start/stop cycles and the most recent time the engine ran, I got the at temp light I  parked the car immediately and haven’t been driving it since. If a fault code  were to come up I would expect it to have been listed. 

-Could you elaborate more on what you think the problem is? 
-Also, how did you determine there is/was torque bind?  I’m quite sure you identified torque bind on my 98 legacy about 10 years ago, but this car feels nothing like that- just pure slipping.
 

Wheels and tires are all matching with very even tread wear .  The car did come with another set of wheels  that the previous owner said he took off right away, but that did have a difference of maybe 3/32 between front and rear. If any damage was done, I’d suspect it is possible from when those wheels and tires were in use. 

 

Im a bit rusty

The sports mode issue can be as straight forward as a bad switch.

TB I may have guessed wrong (usual disclaimer car isnt in my driveway) but the rubbing noise, upon reflection that can be a bad tranny mount, but that along with the tranny over heating, slippng, atf light flashing, all hints at doom. TB also covers un-torquebind, a failed clutch pack. How does it behave are you ever fighting the steering wheel?

[greenleg88]

On 10/26/2020 at 4:12 PM, nipper said:

Im a bit rusty

The sports mode issue can be as straight forward as a bad switch.

TB I may have guessed wrong (usual disclaimer car isnt in my driveway) but the rubbing noise, upon reflection that can be a bad tranny mount, but that along with the tranny over heating, slippng, atf light flashing, all hints at doom. TB also covers un-torquebind, a failed clutch pack. How does it behave are you ever fighting the steering wheel?

Yeah I'm not too concerned with the sports mode switch at the moment; that seems mild compared to the mechanical issues.

What is TB an acronym for? (torque bind?)

I have another car, almost identical except 5MT.   In comparison, the car in question drives pretty much normal; I am not fighting the steering wheel (aside from some resistance, likely due to a known power steering rack leak on the passenger side).  When accelerating, I would describe the car as "heavy" feeling because of the active slip.

I find it especially odd because i have yet to do a ATF change - only the fluid that drained from removing the radiator and the ATF filter has been replaced. I'm hesitant to accept that it could be a bad tranny mount because that the rubbing sound started immediately after that change was performed.

I'm okay with finding out I need to replace the transmission, i would just like to be able to diagnose it correctly.  If there's a chance i could replace the valve body assembly, along with all the solenoids, that sounds way nicer. The concern is if there has been significantly more damage done to the transmission itself (either from neglecting the fluid or prolonged use with mismatched wheels).

[nipper]

Some resistance ? A bad rack usually leaks or fights you in just one direction.

 

Yes TB is torque bind.

 

 

[nipper]

There we go back to a real keyboard. The problem isnt the valve body, its rarely bad on SUbarus. The clutches are damaged hence the slipping. MAYBE you can get lucky or live on borrowed time by changing the fluid, that may help. The sooner the better.

[greenleg88]

The steering was a bit tight when stopped making parallel parking a nuisance. Once the rpms increase, the steering feels fine again. I noticed the power steering pump and surrounding area was totally soaked in fluid when I was doing all the other timing belt work so I swapped it out- the resistance feels marginally better at low rpm but i think it’s still there. Seems like a separate problem though.

 

Roger that- my plan was to swap the fluid and un-dent the pan/inspect for damage just to see what happens.  I suspect the fluid hasn’t been changed in the life of the car.  Hopefully there is a smidge of life left, but I’ll start looking at replacement transmissions. 

Some of the referenced threads i included links to in my OP seem to imply the 5EAT is “hot Garbo” with frequent valve body replacements necessary to keep it running.

I haven’t been driving the car so it’s not getting worse, but I hope to have more info/findings in the coming weeks. 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by greenleg88

[greenleg88]

Update:
Oil pan was removed, inspected the guts- nothing egregious stuck out. 
There was significant (~1/4”) clearance between the dent in the oil pain and any of the internals. 

There was a pretty thick film of essentially ferrofluid on the bottom of the tray and magnet. Can anyone comment on the amount of metal shavings in the fluid for a trans with 157k miles?   Photos to be posted on a separate link- This looks like a TON more then expected. 

With everything back together and fresh Subaru fluid, the car shifts noticeable better in all gears, almost like new! The whirring sound when in reverse or drive still remains and it still feels to be slipping. 

 

https://imgur.com/a/N2TsI05 

Edited November 9, 2020 by greenleg88

[nipper]

1 hour ago, greenleg88 said:

Update:
Oil pan was removed, inspected the guts- nothing egregious stuck out. 
There was significant (~1/4”) clearance between the dent in the oil pain and any of the internals. 

There was a pretty thick film of essentially ferrofluid on the bottom of the tray and magnet. Can anyone comment on the amount of metal shavings in the fluid for a trans with 157k miles?   Photos to be posted on a separate link- This looks like a TON more then expected. 

With everything back together and fresh Subaru fluid, the car shifts noticeable better in all gears, almost like new! The whirring sound when in reverse or drive still remains and it still feels to be slipping. 
 

 

Dont be freaked out by the metal shavings unless you can confirm its metal and not any chunks. Chunks bad.

 

I still feel its on the road to doom.

[nipper]

A question I should have asked a while ago, when does it slip?

[greenleg88]

5 hours ago, nipper said:

Dont be freaked out by the metal shavings unless you can confirm its metal and not any chunks. Chunks bad.

 

I still feel its on the road to doom.

Photo album link added.  and again here. Suspended particulate is definitely metallic and steel, dragging a magnet through it was pretty fun. haha.  Definitely no chunks, so i figure someone who has seen more transmission pans off may be able to just say "that's normal"

I agree it may be on its way to doom as well...

3 hours ago, nipper said:

A question I should have asked a while ago, when does it slip?

It was most notable when starting from a complete stop, revs would increase and hang around 3k rpm while vehicle speed increased eventually.  It would shift pretty hard and maybe hang a little bit, but most notable was from a dead stop.    The few times i saw the "AT Oil temp" light on, it was just overrevving and felt slippery all over the place.   It makes sense that with overheated/old fluid, there was more slip, thereby exacerbating the heat generation, especially at low speeds seen in off-roading.

 

Just drove the car a bit more with the fresh fluid,  to get it moving through the transmission, and it feels a lot better. It is much more responsive from a stop, and all around drives fine.   Some observations:

- The fluid is still super dark now that the rest of the fluid is mixed in; I may perform another drain and replace in a few weeks to get more old fluid out. The real test is if I continue to get "AT Oil Temp" lights/overheat the fluid when I'm out in remote areas.

- The whirring sound when in Drive or reverse is still present, and I can not confidently say it goes away at speed (was suspecting it was just whirring from the torque converter until it fully locks up).  

- If the transmission is on its way out, its going to be driven until failure as I don't plan on changing it prematurely. Depending on how the slipping behavior plays out,  It will probably just get a couple more fluid changes between now and then..

 

 

 

 

 

[heartless]

if you are just doing a drain/fill the typical recommendation is 3 times, with some driving time between each drain.. that should replace roughly 80% of the fluid

hope you can get her in better shape for a little while at least.. buy some time to find a replacement.

[nipper]

Sorry I never saw your response

 

Slipping I asked to get a feel for how long till impending doom,  Doing a full flush (3x) nay or may not by you time.

The whirring you hear if it matches engine RPM is the front pump.

I was hopping slipping in higher gears as that would buy time. Lower gears.

However in the words of click and clack GOOD NEWS. You can go and try any shinet can of transmission fix your heart desires now. It cant make things worse, and may buy you time. 

Just realize that these things always pick the most inopportune time to  go belly up.