EJ swapped brat problem

[bratboy1]

Hello everyone,

 

I have an 82 brat which I swapped a 1991 Legacy L engine and 5spd into. I did this around February and it was working fine, using the stock ECU to run it all. Recently what has been happening, is it won't start after a cold start. Basically I would be able to start it fine the first time after it sits for a week, but then if I drove a few miles, parked, and tried to turn it on it struggles to turn over.

So today, it started, ran for 30 seconds, and then I shut it off. Wont start again. Just redid the spark plugs and put a new coil pack on this morning. There is spark when I test it. Fuel is coming through the lines. 

 

Any idea of what this could be? I am at a loss and its left me stranded a couple times and not sure what is happening.

 

Any help is appreciated, thanks!

[el_freddo]

You might have a leaking injector filling a cylinder with fuel when it’s not running.

check your oil and see if it smells like petrol.  

This theory doesn’t work if you tried starting immediately after. 

Two other things that come to mind - an issue with your starter motor or a sticky/stuck IACV. 

Is it cranking the engine over at a good speed on initial start up and there after? 

Cheers 

Bennie

[bratboy1]

On 10/26/2020 at 4:32 AM, el_freddo said:

You might have a leaking injector filling a cylinder with fuel when it’s not running.

check your oil and see if it smells like petrol.  

This theory doesn’t work if you tried starting immediately after. 

Two other things that come to mind - an issue with your starter motor or a sticky/stuck IACV. 

Is it cranking the engine over at a good speed on initial start up and there after? 

Cheers 

Bennie

Hey Freddo thanks for replying I appreciate it! The thing cranks so I think the starter may be fine. When it fires up it has a strong crank. I was thinking maybe the injectors but I really have no clue how to test them.

 

I will smell the oil when I next get the chance and let it run for a bit before doing, but won't try and start it after.

 

And I can try to replace the IACV but not sure how hard those are to find.... maybe need to explore more options.

 

Thanks Freddo!

[Rampage]

Similar thing that happened on our 95 EJ22. Turned out to be the fuel pump.

When the engine was started and run for a while and then turned off the engine would crank fine, but not start. I found that the fuel pump would not start if there was any pressure in the fuel line. If I pulled the fuel line and bled off the pressure the reconnect it, then turned the key to start the fuel pump would run and keep running and the engine would start. If I just turned the key on, the pump would cycle on and off and then when I turned the key to start the pump would not start back up. With the new pump in it, I can turn the key on and off several times and the pump will run every time like it should.

[el_freddo]

No worries @bratboy1 

After reading @Rampage‘s post, I agree with him too. I drove across the Nullarbor over here with a dodgy efi pump. After filling up with fuel I would have to hit the pump to make it work. It got tricky as I would have to start the engine on the residual line pressure, then jump out and hit the pump to get it cranking. 

This “worked well” until it gave up as we crossed a busy intersection and stalled. That was a fun “push quickly” to clear the intersection. We got a new pump for the return trip home. Very glad the pump shagged out good and proper in town rather than on the endless Nullarbor! 

Do you have a surge tank or is the EFI pump feeding directly from the main tank? If direct feeding you could have a blocked pump - pull the inlet to pump line at the pump and see if there’s a mesh filter in there, it could be full of junk. If so, your pump might be ok.

Cheers 

Bennie

[bratboy1]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:18 PM, Rampage said:

Similar thing that happened on our 95 EJ22. Turned out to be the fuel pump.

When the engine was started and run for a while and then turned off the engine would crank fine, but not start. I found that the fuel pump would not start if there was any pressure in the fuel line. If I pulled the fuel line and bled off the pressure the reconnect it, then turned the key to start the fuel pump would run and keep running and the engine would start. If I just turned the key on, the pump would cycle on and off and then when I turned the key to start the pump would not start back up. With the new pump in it, I can turn the key on and off several times and the pump will run every time like it should.

 

On 11/6/2020 at 7:12 PM, el_freddo said:

No worries @bratboy1 

After reading @Rampage‘s post, I agree with him too. I drove across the Nullarbor over here with a dodgy efi pump. After filling up with fuel I would have to hit the pump to make it work. It got tricky as I would have to start the engine on the residual line pressure, then jump out and hit the pump to get it cranking. 

This “worked well” until it gave up as we crossed a busy intersection and stalled. That was a fun “push quickly” to clear the intersection. We got a new pump for the return trip home. Very glad the pump shagged out good and proper in town rather than on the endless Nullarbor! 

Do you have a surge tank or is the EFI pump feeding directly from the main tank? If direct feeding you could have a blocked pump - pull the inlet to pump line at the pump and see if there’s a mesh filter in there, it could be full of junk. If so, your pump might be ok.

Cheers 

Bennie

 

I didn't think of this... I dont have a surge tank the fuel line runs right from the tank to the filter and pump that I have rigged below...

I will look this weekend and see if the mesh is full, I will also pull the pickup unit on the back of the tank and see if there is rust or debris.

 

I am not sure if this is a dumb question or not but can I do both of these with the tank having fuel in it? I would naturally think no but I have been surprised before, the tank isn't full by any means but I am not in need of a fill up due to it not running.

 

Thanks for the help mates! Cheers!

 

[el_freddo]

That filter should be on the other side of the pump. It’s a high pressure filter. 

I’m not sure what you should run pre-pump if anything. I don’t have a filter before the efi pump other than the little mesh unit on the inlet side of the pump. 

You will have fuel siphon from the tank at just about any fuel level, pressure will be different with tank level. Just be ready for it with a bung in the line from the tank. 

Cheers

Bennie 

[naru2]

It is a leaky injector.

Hold the throttle on the floor w/starting  in order to clear the excess fuel.

[bratboy1]

On 11/8/2020 at 10:22 PM, el_freddo said:

That filter should be on the other side of the pump. It’s a high pressure filter. 

I’m not sure what you should run pre-pump if anything. I don’t have a filter before the efi pump other than the little mesh unit on the inlet side of the pump. 

You will have fuel siphon from the tank at just about any fuel level, pressure will be different with tank level. Just be ready for it with a bung in the line from the tank. 

Cheers

Bennie 

 

On 11/12/2020 at 4:44 PM, naru2 said:

It is a leaky injector.

Hold the throttle on the floor w/starting  in order to clear the excess fuel.

 

 

Hey guys thanks for the replies! So finally today got around to fiddling with the brat....

 

Cold start fired right up and drove it a bit. Parked it for 20 mins and smelled the oil and yep it smells like fuel. 

Second time trying its fighting and with my foot on the pedal it roared big time and could take it on another run.

The 2 hours later same thing, it struggled and with foot on pedal it came to life.

 

Haven't gotten to the back to look at the tank but I think I will go ahead and replace the injectors with some certified rebuilt ones and change the oil and fuel filter for good measure. I just opened the hood after 3 hours and you can smell fuel from a few feet away.

 

I will update when I get this done and fingers crossed hope it works! I appreciate all the help, I couldn't have done it without you all!

[el_freddo]

Awesome, glad you found the work around. 

You could have your current injectors cleaned and serviced. It could be cheaper than serviced second hand replacement units. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[bratboy1]

13 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Awesome, glad you found the work around. 

You could have your current injectors cleaned and serviced. It could be cheaper than serviced second hand replacement units. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Good thinking right, I could just clean them and replace the seals since the injectors are firing. I might just go that route, thanks!

[el_freddo]

11 hours ago, bratboy1 said:

Good thinking right, I could just clean them and replace the seals since the injectors are firing. I might just go that route, thanks!

To clean them properly you’ll need an ultrasonic cleaner - after that I don’t know what the process is in terms of full submersion or not etc. 

The seals are to stop air leaks into the intake manifold, not fuel leaking from the injector, at least not at the intake end. If you have a dud seal on your fuel rail you’d know about that already. 

Clean up the area around the injectors before pulling them out. It’ll help with removing them and stop crud getting in where you don’t want it. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[bratboy1]

On 11/15/2020 at 8:36 PM, el_freddo said:

To clean them properly you’ll need an ultrasonic cleaner - after that I don’t know what the process is in terms of full submersion or not etc. 

The seals are to stop air leaks into the intake manifold, not fuel leaking from the injector, at least not at the intake end. If you have a dud seal on your fuel rail you’d know about that already. 

Clean up the area around the injectors before pulling them out. It’ll help with removing them and stop crud getting in where you don’t want it. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Hey Bennie,

 

I got the new injectors and when I pulled the old ones off one of them was missing both the seals! I got the new ones in and changed the oil and man it sounded mint oh my god I have never heard it so nice. It started on the first crank like 4-5 times yesterday and I thought that was it, I think its been running rich since I swapped it I just never realized it.

Then it almost stranded me last night! I couldn't get it to go and I had to hold the gas pedal down to flood it to get me home haha! Today I didn't have to flood it out but it took a bit longer to start so I'm back to the drawing board. I feel like it would leave me stranded if I went far so I'll be local. But maybe that's just how it is I am not sure, I just got that good taste of it running beautifully yesterday and now I am wondering if that was because I just got new injectors but who knows. I'll give it a week and see how it holds up. It still starts on the first few cranks but it definitely struggles. Anyways thank you for all the help you have been I really do appreciate it, couldn't have done it without ya! 

 

edit: oil still smells like fuel so its something with that

Edited November 22, 2020 by bratboy1

[el_freddo]

Hmmm it’s an interesting one. Glad the injectors were worth it. 

Have you checked the timing belt alignment? 

My other thought was on the valves - remove a cam cover to see if you have hla or solid (adjustable) lifters. If you have solid it could be worth checking your clearances for the valves. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[naru2]

19 hours ago, bratboy1 said:

Hey Bennie,

 

 

Then it almost stranded me last night! I couldn't get it to go and I had to hold the gas pedal down to flood it to get me home haha! 

 

edit: oil still smells like fuel so its something with that

At least one injector is still leaking.Just because they are new does not mean shyte. I have had new ones leak.

Prove it by  installing  a pressure gauge and watching the fuel pressure drop after shutdown or better yet apply fuel pressure to the injectors with them removed.

At least one will drip.I put test tubes over the injectors and left them overnight to find the leaker.

Holding the gas pedal to the floor w/starting does not "flood it out" It does exactly the opposite.It cuts off the fuel supply.

Edited November 23, 2020 by naru2

[bratboy1]

15 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Hmmm it’s an interesting one. Glad the injectors were worth it. 

Have you checked the timing belt alignment? 

My other thought was on the valves - remove a cam cover to see if you have hla or solid (adjustable) lifters. If you have solid it could be worth checking your clearances for the valves. 

Cheers 

Bennie

 

7 hours ago, naru2 said:

At least one injector is still leaking.Just because they are new does not mean shyte. I have had new ones leak.

 Prove it by  installing  a pressure gauge and watching the fuel pressure drop after shutdown or better yet apply fuel pressure to the injectors with them removed.

At least one will drip.I put test tubes over the injectors and left them overnight to find the leaker.

Holding the gas pedal to the floor w/starting does not "flood it out" It does exactly the opposite.It cuts off the fuel supply.

 

Ok so this may be a shot in the dark but I still need to tear this apart but here is what I am thinking. I ordered these injectors (which had some gaskets on them): https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=928647&cc=1269446&jsn=9 and also ordered this gasket kit: https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=928489&cc=1269446&jsn=10374

 

When I took my old injectors out and compared them to the new ones, they appeared to have the same o rings so I didn't use the ones that I ordered, I just went ahead and dropped the new injectors in. The o ring pack that came had a big one and a small one the big one matched up it looks like but the small one won't fit around the injector. Maybe these ones are supposed to go into the fuel rail?

I watched this youtube video of someone going over some 1996 JDM STI injectors and at 2:20 in the video he puts a o ring into the fuel rail to sit which I did not do. I also did not take the fuel rail off thinking that the injectors were a direct swap. Am I missing the o ring? I know its a different vehicle but I wanted to make sure before I tear into the engine.

 

Also would not taking the fuel rail off and doing that side o ring make a difference? Sorry to be repetitive guys, thanks for putting up with my dumb questions. I am not the best with this stuff so it takes me a bit. Thanks again I appreciate it!