Major oil leak has me stumped

[john in KY]

08 Outback with the 3.0.

 

Over the summer been noticing a slight oil stain on the carport.  Two days ago noticed no longer a slight stain.  This morning had to use the car for a 25 mile trip.  Added a quart before leaving, checked at the destination and had leaked a quart.  This afternoon replaced the oil cooler gasket and the oil pressure sensor and no change.

Leak is a large drop ever other second at idle.  Leak is dripping between the front of the oil pan and backside of the timing chain cover.  Just eyeballed the front of the engine to see if maybe from the crank pulley but looks dry to me.  

 

I am at a lose where the source of the leak is.

[1 Lucky Texan]

uh-oh, 'could' be the waterpump. It has a weep hole. Have only read of coolant coming out but, IIRC, it could also leak oil if the the other side of the pump has a bad seal.

your engine may be different from mine - plus, seems like your leak could be under pressure and I think the WP's oil side is just splash.

anyway, this older thread on another Forum might have some pointers; https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/3-0-oil-leak-help.312057/

[lmdew]

Oil Pump Rear Cover could be loose and it's RTV seal failed between the block and oil pump.

Once you have the covers off and it all cleaned up you can put it back together with out the covers so you can run it an pin point the leak.

 

I was think 2.2 or 2.5 motor.  Sorry

Edited November 13, 2020 by lmdew

[idosubaru]

Hey John. timing chain cover, if it’s not the crank seal or cooler gasket.  

It would leak more while running due to the timing chain getting doused in oil.  I’ve seen them get wet but never drip like you’re seeing.

Clean it off and see if you can spot the timing cover mating surface and look there.  There’s a front and rear cover, I assume the front is the culprit but I haven’t focused attention on that specific area in awhile.

can you post a picture of the leak area?  Or email/text it to me.

Edited November 13, 2020 by idosubaru

[john in KY]

Photo just taken after engine idled for 2-3 minutes.  I just looked all over the engine and swear the leak source is somewhere behind the timing chain cover.  

[john in KY]

5 hours ago, lmdew said:

Oil Pump Rear Cover could be loose and it's RTV seal failed between the block and oil pump.

Once you have the covers off and it all cleaned up you can put it back together with out the covers so you can run it an pin point the leak.

????

 

Guessing the oil pump is behind the timing chain cover but my knowledge of this engine is very limited.  I'll crawl under the car again but have no idea what these covers look like.

[john in KY]

5 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Hey John. timing chain cover, if it’s not the crank seal or cooler gasket.  

It would leak more while running due to the timing chain getting doused in oil.  I’ve seen them get wet but never drip like you’re seeing.

Clean it off and see if you can spot the timing cover mating surface and look there.  There’s a front and rear cover, I assume the front is the culprit but I haven’t focused attention on that specific area in awhile.

can you post a picture of the leak area?  Or email/text it to me.

I'll work on a better photo.  Leak between timing chain cover and oil pan,  Thank both of you for replying.  Not concerned about maybe having to pull the engine but very concerned if that chain cover has to removed.  Those 50 plus bolts just too many to face.

[1 Lucky Texan]

just make darn sure it isnt' the pressure sender - it's kinda behind the alternator I think.

[john in KY]

20 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

just make darn sure it isnt' the pressure sender - it's kinda behind the alternator I think.

Swapped it out when I replaced the cooler gasket.  Located just above the cooler.

Some photos:

Leak just above the oil pan indentation.

 

Friend has a lift. Eventually will get better photos.

 

Does accessing that oil pump "back plate"  means removing the front timing chain cover?

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by john in KY

[john in KY]

9 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

uh-oh, 'could' be the waterpump. It has a weep hole. Have only read of coolant coming out but, IIRC, it could also leak oil if the the other side of the pump has a bad seal.

your engine may be different from mine - plus, seems like your leak could be under pressure and I think the WP's oil side is just splash.

anyway, this older thread on another Forum might have some pointers; https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/3-0-oil-leak-help.312057/

Weep hole is left of the leak and dry. 

[idosubaru]

39 minutes ago, john in KY said:

 

Leak just above the oil pan indentation.

Friend has a lift. Eventually will get better photos.

Does accessing that oil pump "back plate"  means removing the front timing chain cover?

 

That looks (and sounds) a lot like a front crank seal leak.  Maybe remove the crank bolt cover (10mm bolts) and the crank pulley bolt (22mm) and crank pulley and see if it's wet behind there?  Check the serpentine pulley bearings while the belts are off - they fail all the time.  easily replacable - tap out, tap in new ones.

I'd clean that area up with a rag and cleaner and see where you start to see oil again - paying particular attention to the seal and grabbing a clear picture of the first signs of oil.  

Since it sounds like it's leaking badly - it should be easy to see where it emanates from once it's clean. 

"back plate" - I think he was referencing a 4 cylinder vehicle.   your leak is going to be the front crank seal or timing chain cover.  oil pans are in that vicinity but I don't see how they could leak only while idling like that.  

The timing cover bolts are numerous.  The front cover can be resealed in the vehicle.  It's tight but doable if the bolts aren't rusty.  If they are rusty and round out then it's trickier. 

The rear cover obviously needs the front and all the chain components removed. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by idosubaru

[lmdew]

Sorry, I did not see the 3.0 and was thinking 2.2 or 2.5.

[Numbchux]

What a mess, with the crap on the front of the cover, I'd say it's coming from higher up. Front main seal, probably.

 

Clean that thing off. You'll never pinpoint it with dirt and oil everywhere like that. Get a can or 2 of engine cleaner, grab a pair of ramps, and head to a coin-op car wash. 

[john in KY]

"What a mess, with the crap on the front of the cover, I'd say it's coming from higher up. Front main seal, probably."

 

The front cover is fairly clean.  The photo is from under the car and shows the backside of the timing chain cover. 

 

Have yet to decide on a course of action.

 

Does this engine have 2 crankshaft seals, an inner and outer?  

[john in KY]

"That looks (and sounds) a lot like a front crank seal leak.  Maybe remove the crank bolt cover (10mm bolts) and the crank pulley bolt (22mm) and crank pulley and see if it's wet behind there?"

I'm willing to do this after watching several videos but can't stop wondering how a failed seal can produce a leak on the back side of the covers. 
 

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, john in KY said:

 

I'm willing to do this after watching several videos but can't stop wondering how a failed seal can produce a leak on the back side of the covers. 
 

****Edit***  I posted this before I read your reply about it being the rear of the cover.....so it’s likely all irrelevant....
 

Youre right, it won’t. The picture shows black on the front of the cover. Look at the two bottom bolts on the front cover, and even above them, and the oil cooler hose (and it’s associated bracket) in the picture looks to have oil on it. They’re all black, not silver. I’d follow the black deposits up the crank seal. A rear cover leak isn’t going to make those bolts and hose wet.

It seems like oil is running down the face of the cover and then dripping down. Often times it gets blown back and “sprays” areas behind/below when the car is moving.

Pictures are tough sometimes - can’t see the whole area and context, so it’s hard to say if that blackness in the picture is 10 years of build up, or a recent leak.

Edited November 16, 2020 by idosubaru

[idosubaru]

10 hours ago, john in KY said:

"What a mess, with the crap on the front of the cover, I'd say it's coming from higher up. Front main seal, probably."

 

The front cover is fairly clean.  The photo is from under the car and shows the backside of the timing chain cover. 

 

Have yet to decide on a course of action.

 

Does this engine have 2 crankshaft seals, an inner and outer?  

Oh woah, that picture is the back of the cover?  I think that’s confusing us.  The oil cooler hose bracket bolts to the back like that? I thought those bolted to the front.  I’m all turned around then, it’s too close for me to see the entire context. I can picture the rear of the covers very well.  I’ll try to remember to check my spare H6 engine I have in the garage tomorrow.

 

[john in KY]

If my friend isn't using his lift tomorrow, will get under it and take a better look. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by john in KY

[Numbchux]

On 11/15/2020 at 8:01 AM, john in KY said:

The front cover is fairly clean.  The photo is from under the car and shows the backside of the timing chain cover. 

The top half of the picture isn't the bottom of the front cover?

 

If not, I have no idea what I'm looking at...

[idosubaru]

2 hours ago, Numbchux said:

The top half of the picture isn't the bottom of the front cover?

 

If not, I have no idea what I'm looking at...

That sure looks like the front to me, but maybe it’s just the angle or orientation of the pic confusing us.  

if you’re back under it John, grab another pic maybe from further back to see more of the surrounding area.  From that small pic it looks like the front cover and probable crank seal.

you asked earlier - it’s just one crank seal behind the crank pulley that taps into the front cover. Just like any other ER or EJ Subaru engine. 

[john in KY]

The photo is the backside of the cover.  More or less found the leak.  Just to the right of the water pump is an idler.  Fairly positive it has an O ring and that has failed.   The leak is definitely leaking what we believe is the part of the casting [back half of the cover] that directs the oil back to the oil pan.

 

Whatever, feeling confident an O ring has failed and went and ordered all the parts and will start taking down the timing cover tomorrow.  

Will post a few photos during the teardown.

 

Sorry about the confusing photo.  

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, john in KY said:

The photo is the backside of the cover.  More or less found the leak.  Just to the right of the water pump is an idler.  Fairly positive it has an O ring and that has failed.   The leak is definitely leaking what we believe is the part of the casting [back half of the cover] that directs the oil back to the oil pan.

 

Whatever, feeling confident an O ring has failed and went and ordered all the parts and will start taking down the timing cover tomorrow.  

Will post a few photos during the teardown.

 

Sorry about the confusing photo.  

Great.  Good eye.  some of the Timing cover bolts do have orings.  There’s a bunch in total, but I forget which are inner or outer or bolt related. There are some between the rear timing cover and the block. Hopefully not one of those.  That’s interesting one of those can leak that much.

Sorry I was confused. Pics can be tough.  Close gives detail but maybe not location.  Too far gives location but no detail.  Lighting, angle, etc. 

[john in KY]

Got the radiator out this morning and started on the cover bolts.  Stopped when I only got 10 out of 13 loose. 3 stripped heads.  I hope it, the leak, is not something to do with the back cover because I have no plans to remove it.  Back is sore and calling it a day.

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, john in KY said:

Got the radiator out this morning and started on the cover bolts.  Stopped when I only got 10 out of 13 loose. 3 stripped heads.  I hope it, the leak, is not something to do with the back cover because I have no plans to remove it.  Back is sore and calling it a day.

Here’s my “write up” on removing those when like all 50 of them were stripped. Granted I had the motor out of the car but I’ve done one off bolts here and there the same way.  I used a heavy steel mallet, a good but heavier than a hammer. 

https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/alternate-method-for-removing-stubborn-rusty-seized-bolts.122882/

[john in KY]

Got all the bolts out today.  Discovered a special socket set given to me years ago designed to grip rounded off nuts/bolts also worked on the stripped  bolts, except for 3.  Got them out with Vicegrips.  Can't work on it tomorrow.  Will sleep well tonight. Those stripped bolts had me stressed out.