Thoughts on a hard starting '92 Legacy?

[floridarich]

Hello all. I'm new here, but I'm grateful for this community.

So I drive a 1992 Legacy L automatic wagon with 72,600 miles on it. Mine is a phase 1 EJ22 engine. I've never had much go wrong with the vehicle since I've owned it. I got it at only 58,000 miles and I've been very intentional to keep up with the maintenance. However, as long as I can remember it's had a hard time starting, but only at seemingly random times. I've gone months with not a single hard start, and then sometimes it seems like every startup it will give me grief. I'll have to really keep cranking until something finally "catches" and it seems to cough to life. There's been times where it would misfire upon a hard startup and I'd have to keep it revved to ~2000 rpm for around 20 seconds until I could finally ease up and the engine would run fine. I've never had it shut off on me while driving, though. I do occasionally notice a fuel/oil smell in the cabin area or around the outside of the vehicle upon starting the car, but I know I have a couple exhaust leaks so maybe that's what that's coming from? One more thing: occasionally at highway speeds I'll lose power at the gas pedal; I can press down all I want but the engine will only rev; I won't have any actual power delivery. I usually have to slow down to around 40 mph or pull over briefly; every time I've ever done this the power delivery at the accelerator pedal started working again and the problem was gone.

Anyway, I'm just throwing out all I can think of to help paint the picture; I love my little wagon and don't want to have to sell it or have it fall into disuse. I know this is a lot, but do you guys have any thoughts? I've scoured these and other forums gathering as much info as possible, but I've never directly asked about my problems myself.

In case it helps, here's some work I've done on the vehicle within the last year:

• Compression test - 175 psi on all 4 cylinders.
• Timing belt (when I replaced the belt I verified the old belt was in correct time)
• Coolant change
• Oil change + filter
• New valve cover gaskets
• New plugs a year ago (when I pulled them out today I noticed oil around the threads of all 4, but no oil was on the tips or upper half of the threads.)
• New cam and crank sensors
• Cleaned MAF and throttle body

 

[lmdew]

Any CEL Codes?

Might have a leaking fuel injector.  I can be pretty random.

 

[floridarich]

It's OBD 1; never had a CEL, but I checked the codes it had stored before I did the timing belt a couple months ago. It had the following codes stored:
 

• Crank angle sensor/circuit (no reference pulse)
• Starter switch (starter switch remains in ON of OFF position)
• Cam angle sensor (no position pulse)
• Airflow sensor (open or shorted airflow sensor circuit)

I went to check any codes again yesterday but there didn't appear to be any. I guess they were erased from memory when I disconnected the battery.

Is there an obvious way to check a leaky fuel injector? I've got no experience with those. Thanks.

Edited November 23, 2020 by floridarich
Spelling.

[lmdew]

GD may have an idea.

Otherwise, the next time it is hard starting.  I'd stop and pull the plugs and see if one is wet with fuel.

[el_freddo]

Next time it won’t start easily, try foot to the floor when starting. 

This tells the ECU the engine is flooded. It cuts injector pulse until engine is running. It could be part of your issue that would point to injectors leaking. 

As for the power loss I’m stumped on that one. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Crawlerdan]

the two most common failures that lead to your issues are a faulty coolant temp sensor, although when these fail the symptoms are more consistent, not irratic

if you choose to replace it use an OEM one

 

second is a leaking injector. i just had the same exact symptoms with my 1989 legacy, i had two injectors pouring fuel in the cylinders while at rest overnight.replaced them and the seals, problem gone. if you replace injectors and the problem disappears, change your oil. there's fuel in it.

 

napa can still get injectors for that car.

[floridarich]

3 hours ago, Crawlerdan said:

the two most common failures that lead to your issues are a faulty coolant temp sensor, although when these fail the symptoms are more consistent, not irratic

if you choose to replace it use an OEM one

 

second is a leaking injector. i just had the same exact symptoms with my 1989 legacy, i had two injectors pouring fuel in the cylinders while at rest overnight.replaced them and the seals, problem gone. if you replace injectors and the problem disappears, change your oil. there's fuel in it.

 

napa can still get injectors for that car.

Gotcha. Thanks for the thoughts. I don't have to do anything with the fuel rail do I? Is it as simple as just buying four new injectors? I was reading the chapter in my Haynes repair manual last night and it seems pretty straightforward replacing the injectors. I've just never done it before.

[floridarich]

4 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Next time it won’t start easily, try foot to the floor when starting. 

This tells the ECU the engine is flooded. It cuts injector pulse until engine is running. It could be part of your issue that would point to injectors leaking. 

As for the power loss I’m stumped on that one. 

Cheers 

Bennie

That's good to know. I never realized that was the function of putting the pedal all the way to the floor.

[naru2]

16 hours ago, floridarich said:

Hello all. I'm new here, but I'm grateful for this community.

 There's been times where it would misfire upon a hard startup and I'd have to keep it revved to ~2000 rpm for around 20 seconds until I could finally ease up and the engine would run fine. I've never had it shut off on me while driving, though. I do occasionally notice a fuel/oil smell in the cabin area or around the outside of the vehicle upon starting the car, but I know I have a couple exhaust leaks so maybe that's what that's coming from? One more thing: occasionally at highway speeds I'll lose power at the gas pedal; I can press down all I want but the engine will only rev; I won't have any actual power delivery. I usually have to slow down to around 40 mph or pull over briefly; every time I've ever done this the power delivery at the accelerator pedal started working again and the problem was gone.

 

 

This pretty much proves the plugs are fouled w/fuel or coolant.Probably fuel in your case.Likely a leaky injector .Check them by seeing if fuel pressure holds after shutdown.

If the engine revs w/o a response from the car,you have a transmission problem.Check the fluid level etc.

[1 Lucky Texan]

auto-trans fluid is checked while idling.

 

The stick will always show overfull when checked with engine stopped.

any relationship to rain or dew-y mornings ? could be plug wires are cracked.

[floridarich]

3 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

auto-trans fluid is checked while idling.

 

The stick will always show overfull when checked with engine stopped.

any relationship to rain or dew-y mornings ? could be plug wires are cracked.

I've not noticed any changes with the morning dew or on rainy days. I haven't touched the coil or plug wires, so it's possible they could need replacing.

[floridarich]

7 hours ago, naru2 said:

This pretty much proves the plugs are fouled w/fuel or coolant.Probably fuel in your case.Likely a leaky injector .Check them by seeing if fuel pressure holds after shutdown.

If the engine revs w/o a response from the car,you have a transmission problem.Check the fluid level etc.

When it comes to fuel injectors, is it best to stick with OEM? Napa has OEM injectors for $160 each I think. Yikes! But I see on Rock Auto there's rebuilt options for ~$50.

How do you check the injectors to see if they hold fuel pressure after shutdown?

[Crawlerdan]

I’m not sure that you can check injectors at home. You could remove all 4 and take them to an injection specialist to rebuild them. Likely cheaper and better quality. If you can’t find a rebuilder, call your local diesel performance shop, they will know who can do it if they don’t actually do it themselves 

[naru2]

15 hours ago, floridarich said:

When it comes to fuel injectors, is it best to stick with OEM? Napa has OEM injectors for $160 each I think. Yikes! But I see on Rock Auto there's rebuilt options for ~$50.

How do you check the injectors to see if they hold fuel pressure after shutdown?

Tee in a pressure gauge or better yet,remove them and apply fuel pressure.

[wtdash]

Check resistance on the injectors. Should be 10-12 ohms, IIRC. 

'92 'should' have the same red, side-feeds as every EJ22/25 until '98-ish - if you have a local used/salvage/wrecking yard.   They are a pain to remove from the rails.  

 I'd also 2nd the coolant sensor as suspect. On that year there's one for the gauge (single plug) and the actual sensor (2-wire) for the ECU,  next to each other. Also, kind of a pain to access/remove.

Edited November 24, 2020 by wtdash

[lmdew]

I have many sets of Red Injectors in rails.  

Let me know if you want some.