98 Outback EJ 25 - HG or retire it?....

[GorgeSuby]

So I have been chasing coolant issues with my 98 Outback & after searching the forums it seems pretty obvious I have head gasket issues. Coolant overflow reservoir is always full or overfull & it has started missing a bit under load. I was about to do a major tune-up since it needed it anyway, with knock sensor etc to smooth out the miss & was going to run the codes since CEL is on, but thinking it may be a mute point if HG needs done. I have limited funds but am fairly mechanical - though I have never pulled the heads. Car needs lots of other love too - oil leaks, CV joint starting to make noise etc... Not to mention it has salvage title, & body/paint glass is not great...

So, if you had say $1000 & this car, what would you do?

1)Fix it? ...

2) sell it cheap as is + $1000 on another beater?

3)Limp it along & save up for something more solid?

 

Just looking for some informed opinions on here.

[idosubaru]

EJ22 swap all day long and send that thing packing. 

if you knew how badly it's been overheated it's workable to fix them.  resurface the heads (very easy to do yourself, like super simple, look the thread up on here - post apocalyptic head resurface or whatever is the title), use Subaru MLS gaskets and properly torque it and lube the head bolt threads, clean the bolts (reuse them and ignore everyone who says otherwise).  if you do all that you're golden....but who knows how badly they've been overheated in the past? 

EJ22 is the best engine subaru ever made - find one and they're a plug and play swap.  awesome engines, super preditable, reliable, and easy to maintain with no headgasket or major issues.  

[lmdew]

1++++++ on the 2.2 swap.  I've done 15+ of them and have been happy with each one.

Under $500 you can find a good used 2.2.  New Timing Belt and all the seals.  Drop it in and drive it for another 100K+

[GorgeSuby]

...Like it.. actually was thinking along those lines as Iv'e always wanted the EJ22 but would rather have a manual... how hard to swap to manual?

 

Or maybe just can it & start from scratch an EJ22/manual vehicle?

[idosubaru]

Yeah it’s not worth it to swap to manual except for novelty or learning.  Get a manual.  Get one with a blown EJ25 and swap it to EJ22. Expands your search options and EJ25s usually come in better trimmed vehicles like outbacks, etc.  so you’ll get better trim and options and an outback which are all EJ25 after 1996. 

the 96 is the only EJ22 outback, and it was only the manual trans that year that got the EJ22. 

They’re old enough and cheap enough just get one that’s a manual.  Around here manuals are dirt cheap, no one wants one and autos are 10x better in every way except your head.  Find an EJ25 with blown headgasket and manual trans for cheap and EJ22 swap it. 

but yeah it can be swapped. Trans pedal assembly driveshaft rear diff center console, cruise control box if you want that to work, clutch cables flywheel clutch. And wire in the reverse lights to work. 

[GorgeSuby]

hmmm... yeah maybe I don't need a manual...

[lmdew]

Auto to Manual trans swap is 10X the work of swapping 2.5 to 2.2

[idosubaru]

21 hours ago, GorgeSuby said:

hmmm... yeah maybe I don't need a manual...

What he said 10x more work. Then you end up with more maintenance (clutch cable/fluid), less reliable, synchro issues, input shaft bearing failures, less forgiving torque bind failures, harder to find, harder to hook up a trailer, can’t manually control the 4WD like you can with auto, and harder to drink your coffee.  Unless you like to run your battery dead Often and need pop the clutch or need to wiggle a 3” stick while driving for fun they have no advantages and lots of downsides.  This isn’t the 1970s, notions of manuals having advantages are archaic now. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by idosubaru

[el_freddo]

Wow you guys really beat on the manual boxes! They’re not bad at all IF the driver knows how to drive manual! 

If you want to know a bad box, try the Brat 4 speed. I call it a highway tractor because it feels like a Massey Ferguson gearbox compared to the later 5speed but is way less reliable! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

9 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Wow you guys really beat on the manual boxes! They’re not bad at all IF the driver knows how to drive manual! 

If you want to know a bad box, try the Brat 4 speed. I call it a highway tractor because it feels like a Massey Ferguson gearbox compared to the later 5speed but is way less reliable! 

Cheers 

Bennie

wait y’all get dual range trans right ?  That’s just not fair!  Maybe if we had those....!! Lol. 
 

Not bad is true - if you could buy a brand new one and change the fluids yourself they’d be more tolerable.  But here we are talking about old used transmissions with unknown history that are increasingly hard to find and prices are sometimes high because of it.

And they are worse across large sample sizes. In US Subaru’s there will be more manual failures than autos per capita. Across a sample size that large all variables will be averaged out and manuals are worse.

I’d guess it’s multiple owners, infrequent fluid changes, high average mileage and temp and elevation extremes.  We drive 1,000 miles here. I have no idea how many 1,000 mile trips I’ve done. US averages twice the annual miles of NZ.  We also have 120 degree deserts, -50 degree winters and frequent mountain traverses where Subaru’s are common.  I think all of those combined make the US a prime place to reveal the less forgiving nature of mechanical components. 

so I agree in principle, and with a new one.  but applied to the US and the used older market, like a guy swapping a quarter century old trans, there’s a significant difference.  

and theres still the pain of hitching up trailers and clutch replacement which is a colossal waste of time and money. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by idosubaru

[nicksubaru]

I wouldn't swap the tranny. I only have manual cars too. If you want a manual, then start with a manual car. 

As for this car. You said that your pretty handy. I would pull the motor and see what you really have to work with. Then decide from there, what you need to do to get it fully running or put a 2.2 in it. Can you even find a 2.2 for cheap where you are?

I just did a full reseal and heads rebuild and you can do it all with surprisingly little bit of tools. I didn't break over $800 for parts and supplies. And you 100% can resurface your own subaru heads because they are aluminum and small. 

[nicksubaru]

I don't know how to link posts but the topic title is...

 

DIY Head Resurfacing... or "Post-apocalyptic machine shop techniques!"

 

Posted by GD

[lmdew]

Yes, for under $300 I could grab a good used 2.2 and do the T-belt all the seals and have it ready to go.  If you know the histor of the 2.5 and it was not overheated then it may be worth doing the HG.  Most of the Outback 2.2 swaps I did were on cars I purchased that way.  Know way of knowing how long or how bad they were overheated.  I didn't want to take a chance on the lower end bearings.

[nicksubaru]

The lower end is what you go by if that 2.5 block is worth messing with or not. How many times has it been over heated? If zero, and you know that. Do the head gasket. 

[Stelcom66]

 

On 11/24/2020 at 9:06 PM, GorgeSuby said:

hmmm... yeah maybe I don't need a manual...

I also love manual transmissions, but my next vehicle may be an automatic. I've heard clutch bearing failures are somewhat common on older transmissions. I had what I believe was a bad bearing on my '98 Outback based on the noise. I had to have the clutch replaced on my '02 Forester.

I'm trying to change my mindset to accept automatics. Plus - if I won the lottery and was able to afford a new sedan or SUV, a manual transmission would be almost impossible to find. Even in the Honda Accord starting in 2021.

IMO the first generation Outback is an attractive vehicle, worth putting some money into. Best of luck rebuilding the 2.5L or with a replacement 2.2L. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Stelcom66

[idosubaru]

15 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

somewhat common on older transmissions. I had what I believe was a bad bearing on my '98 Outback based on the noise. I had to have the clutch replaced on my '02 Forester.

I'm trying to change my mindset to accept automatics.

Or accept that manuals (for subarus anyway) are likely to need more maintenance and repairs like you’re describing and keep rolling.

I don’t always avoid manuals and don’t steer people from them as a rule - but I think it’s helpful to at least be clear and make an informed decision about facts. It’s common for people to think manuals are cheaper, lower maintenance, more reliable, have better torque, or are better for towing - which is all a big load of archaic hippo shat for Subarus. 

I drive XT6s as daily drivers - I can do it relatively inexpensively and reliably but I’m not kidding myself thinking they’re “better” than thousands of other options.  I just know them well enough to accept it and circumvent some downsides. Same with manuals. 

Im speaking for Subarus - I have no idea if other manufacturers are similar or not. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by idosubaru

[nicksubaru]

In my experience, i have had almost zero problems with manual subaru transmissions. Out of a dozen or so cars. And the only problems I've had with any subaru transmissions. One was out of a 03 forester auto. Front diff ate itself. Other a clutch fork from a 00 outback. Forester had about 235k and tge outback about 315k.

[Stelcom66]

 

4 hours ago, idosubaru said:

I drive XT6s as daily drivers - I can do it relatively inexpensively and reliably but I’m not kidding myself thinking they’re “better” than thousands of other options.  I just know them well enough to accept it and circumvent some downsides. Same with manuals....

The advantage you have is being able to work on them - inexpensively compared to those that don't have the talent to do so. While reviewers call the 4EAT 'archaic'. from what I've read it's maybe more reliable than many other automatics of the era. I know with a torque converter it's almost like having more than 4 speeds. The gen 6 Honda Accord 4 speed automatic has a relatively bad reputation - hence me (finally finding.. far away) buying a 5MT. That, and as mentioned sort of my preference. 

There's the appeal of Subarus that I can't ignore. Yea they may need some more maintenance than others, but some basic things I can do. I've always changed the oil in the Subarus I've had and those my sons had - even the '95 Legacy without jacking up the car. (Should have kept the 2.2L from that, but was close too 200k miles). IMO they're great winter cars with AWD and heated seats. I don't like leather, and I believe Subaru is the only one to offer heated cloth seats - at least in vehicles about 10 years old which I'd consider. 

 

[Stelcom66]

1 hour ago, nicksubaru said:

In my experience, i have had almost zero problems with manual subaru transmissions. Out of a dozen or so cars. And the only problems I've had with any subaru transmissions. One was out of a 03 forester auto. Front diff ate itself. Other a clutch fork from a 00 outback. Forester had about 235k and tge outback about 315k.

Holy smokes! What year was the Outback? And getting 235k on the Forester is encouraging. I know someone on here (heartless?) has about 260k+ on her Forester.

[heartless]

On 11/28/2020 at 1:44 PM, Stelcom66 said:

Holy smokes! What year was the Outback? And getting 235k on the Forester is encouraging. I know someone on here (heartless?) has about 260k+ on her Forester.

it is quite common to get well over 200K on a Subaru - especially if taken care of.

My 2002 Forester is just over 262K.. and counting.

Edited November 30, 2020 by heartless

[idosubaru]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:44 PM, Stelcom66 said:

Holy smokes! What year was the Outback? And getting 235k on the Forester is encouraging. I know someone on here (heartless?) has about 260k+ on her Forester.

That's actually not surprising.  Current Subaru's in my driveway have 265k, 233k, 210k, and 135k and all of them I'd take on highway trips and routinely see hundreds of thousands of miles of trips. 

Rust or multiple owners/poor maintenance usually does them in, not the actual mechanicals.  Usually takes some maintenance to get there, particularly to do it reliably or without feeling like something is always needing work.  brakes, struts, CV boots, gaskets, seals, timing belt, hoses.  A non-car person often just drives until those things pile up, a DIY or car person will track and do them in time and/or preventatively.  A little effort keeps you in a 200k vehicle reliably. 

Subaru hobbyists or DIY can usually manage all of that stuff on pocket change and preventatively, but many people just change oil and hope for the best while those things become nagging.  I've given or helped people get dozens of Subarus.  The vast majority are just looking for A to B cars and literally think about nothing but gas and oil changes.  By the time they're ready to get rid of the car it's often got a lot of needs. 

So yes - 250k would be surprising for someone just driving it on oil changes and no preventative thoughts at all.  But for a little bit more than "change the oil and i'm good" mentality, it's not that hard.

But really high mileage and "running it into the ground", is just one way of thinking about it. If I buy at 120k and sell at 300k, it isn't advantageous financially or for my time/effort.  If I buy low at 120k and sell high at 175k I can almost break even.  i end up doing a little of both - keep a high mileage one or two in the fleet for specific purposes (7 seater, winter, towing, work), and rotate some others.  Just depends what you're after and what your time/skill sets are. 

[1197sts]

I have an 01 OB with 257K on it, 03 OB with 258K, 99 Forester with 205K, unfortunately the Forester recently hit a deer and isn't in driving condition. I agree with the other comments, the automatic is much superior in this generation of Subaru. BTW, I had an 02 OB a couple of years ago with 350K, still had the original transmission (auto of course).

As others have mentioned you have to keep up with the maintenance if you want to drive a Subaru with lots of miles on it. Head gaskets, brakes, timing stuff, struts, radiators, etc. Keep you oil level where it belongs, be very careful with overheat issues.

[GorgeSuby]

Thanks for all the replies - lots of food for thought... As for manual vs auto I think it is a nostalgia thing for me - my car history:

• 74 VW Van - manual
• 94 Geo Metro - manual
• 84 Toyota 4runner - manual
• 74 BMW 2002 - manual
• 91 VW Vanagon - manual
• 87 VW Vanagon Synchro 4x4 - manual
• 87 Toyota FJ60 Landcruiser - Auto
• 91 Subaru Loyale - manual
• 91 Toyota FJ80 Landcruiser - Auto(still have)
• 96 Subaru Outback - Auto(still have)
• 03 Subaru Forester - Auto(still have)

So yeah kinda partial to manual, but I believe you are right auto is fine...

[3Pin]

 

Looked up via car-part.com.   There are quite a few by you. Pricing is another stroy.  They sell for about 300 with 150k miles around my neck of the woods.  That's cuz the bodies rust away first.

 

1995 Engine Assembly Subaru Legacy

(2.2L, VIN 6, 6th digit),2.2L-150K

150,000

A

1548SL

$Call

Fast Auto Wrecking USA-WA(Battle-Ground) Request_Quote 360-723-5156 Request_Insurance_Quote

43

[Stelcom66]

1 hour ago, GorgeSuby said:

Thanks for all the replies - lots of food for thought... As for manual vs auto I think it is a nostalgia thing for me - my car history:

• 74 VW Van - manual...

Interesting list of vehicles. I love to have a VW van or Vanagon with a manual transmission. I've heard of projects where Subaru engines have replaced the VW flat-4 in the water cooled models. That 4WD Synchro if found today could be worth a lot.

I've had some unusual vehicles since some would never suspect they could be had with a manual transmission. Those were:

• 1980 Ford Club Wagon 4 speed floor shift (manual steering too... not easy to park)
• 1984 Dodge Caravan (2.2L 4)
• 1987 Ford Aerostar (3.0 V6)   

My 1985 GL (Loyale) 4WD wagon was manual - as well as the 1998 Outback and and 2002 Forester. Some automatics including the Legacys my sons owned. My first Subaru was a 1980 I think GL. That was a 3 speed auto, no tachometer but I'd suspect at 65mph (speed limit was 55 in 1985) it would be doing about 3500 rpm. The '98 Outback did about 3200 at 65 mph, I always wondered why they were geared like that. The 4EAT was a better highway cruiser. The Forester, even though a manual was a more reasonable 2750 rpm at 65 mph.   

32 minutes ago, 3Pin said:

 

Looked up via car-part.com. -

1995 Engine Assembly Subaru Legacy

(2.2L, VIN 6, 6th digit),2.2L-150K

150,000

A

1548SL

$Call

Fast Auto Wrecking USA-WA(Battle-Ground) Request_Quote 360-723-5156 Request_Insurance_Quote

43

  

A few years ago my youngest son traded in a '95 Legacy with the 2.2L. Was thinking we should have kept the engine but it had close to 200k and was leaking oil. As typical, no sign of any head gasket trouble. Since it was an LS it was AWD. He'd go right by struggling $40k+ BMWs and the like on the road going uphill to the mall.