2000 Legacy Delayed Engine Start, Sputtering/Dying On 1st Ignition

[dirty_mech]

Hi all,

This is a 2000 Legacy L Wagon M/T EJ251.  I believe these are two separate issues, but they both primary affect engine startup.

1)  The delayed engine start.  I will go to crank the engine and the starter motor will not crank for a handful of seconds, then will suddenly start to crank.  This only happens in the mornings; no cranking problems for the rest of the day.  It doesn't happen every morning, but more often than not. Alternator charges at 14.08 volts when idling and tested good in a parts store machine.  My first theory was a bad battery.  I've tried 3 different batteries from Pick n Pull so I am fairly sure it's not the battery.  It did it again this morning, no start for a couple seconds.  Before trying to get it to start, I checked the battery voltage and it was at 12.57.    I am starting to suspect that either the starter motor or ignition switch is going bad.  I'm leaning towards the starter motor, but wanted to see if anyone had a similar experience in the past.

2)  The sputtering and dying on first ignition.  This one is a real mystery.  Most times I start the car, it will sputter and die on the first ignition.  Giving it gas doesn't help prevent the sputtering from killing the engine; the sputtering gets more intense, and might last a bit longer, but eventually kills the engine.  Second engine start attempts usually result in the engine running just fine.  This has been going on for almost a month.  There have been a rare couple times that the engine died just when idling, both times while parked and not in traffic, but is normally a startup occurrence.  It can happen throughout the day but is more likely to occur if it hasn't been driven recently.  My best guess is dirty fuel injectors; the fuel filter is a Wix XP and not that old, air filter is new, and the spark plugs have been changed in the past 6 months.  I don't know what else it could be; a dirty cam or crank sensor?  Does anyone have a clue?

All advice is very appreciated!

[1 Lucky Texan]

MANY, MANY people have had older soobs that needed new contacts/plunger kit in the starter's solenoid. Very common. But, I will say, sometimes corroded battery cables, loose connections and other issues can somewhat mimic the bad solenoid symtpoms. Kits to rebuild the solenoid, step by step with pics, and even some youtube videos are easy to find.

 

not sure on the second issue but, probably worth inspecting the fuel pump's cap and o-ring. Not an uncommon failure. Oil in the plug 'tubes' from leaking gasket, bad plugwires, etc. might be suspects as well.

[dirty_mech]

 Hi Lucky Texan,

Thanks for the reply.  I thought it was some kind of starter issue! I will see about getting the solenoid repair kit. 

On the second issue, I doubt it's the fuel pump because I preemptively replaced it about a year ago, including the design-defective cap, using a Delphi replacement kit.   The spark plug wires are just as new as the fuel pump too, but I'll check inside the plugs and wires to see if I notice any oil or other issue. 

I'm going to get this rebuild kit from GSKMOTOR:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085HJ13SK/

My car's starter is the Denso 2800308, AKA 23300AA40A, 1280008310, 1280008311, 1280008312, 2280007130, 2280007131, 23300AA220, 23300AA221, 23300AA40A, VS401.  This kit says it fits some of those models, so I will use it and post an update once I know if it fixed the problem or not.

Edited December 20, 2020 by dirty_mech

[heartless]

20 hours ago, dirty_mech said:

On the second issue, I doubt it's the fuel pump because I preemptively replaced it about a year ago, including the design-defective cap, using a Delphi replacement kit.   The spark plug wires are just as new as the fuel pump too, but I'll check inside the plugs and wires to see if I notice any oil or other issue.

brand of wires does make a difference on these cars.. parts store wires are no good.

OEM or NGK wires ONLY.

plugs should also be basic copper core NGK.. they do not need, or want, the fancy stuff.

[Tuna-boat]

Mine has committed the same offenses. Only wouldn't start even when jumped. Is that still the battery? If it's possibly the relay, I've read it's WAY up high under the dash. My question. What's the best way to get to it. 

[dirty_mech]

Thanks for the heads up heartless.  The wires are NGK as memory serves, and I replaced the spark plugs with oem NGKs as well after my head gasket blew earlier last summer.  In any case, the mystery was solved on these issues.

First and foremost with the starter issue of it not turning over the engine; there was a bad connection inside the solenoid housing.  I fixed it by resoldering the connection.  I also had to file down the heavily worn plunger washer and contacts because the solenoid rebuild kit had a plunger rod too short for my starter. I would like to get the right kit for that, but I'm not sure which one to get.

 The delayed starting and hesitation at ignition seems to have been from a failing fuel pump relay.  The relay took a very long time to fail completely, causing a number of performance symptoms at ignition, as well as occasional loss of power when driving.  I created a separate thread for that issue, which I addressed today.

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by dirty_mech

[dirty_mech]

Well guys I think I found another thing that was causing this issue; the starter relay.  The starter began to give me more trouble a couple weeks ago and after my experience with the fuel pump relay, I decided to identify and replace the starter relay.  It's a square blue thing very close to the fuel pump relay, branded by Nissan in my case.  Replacing it eliminated most of my starter issues.  I'm glad it turned out to be the relay because I just rebuilt the starter about a month ago, so that saved me a lot of pain.  Opened up the old relay for shits and giggles, and there was nothing wrong with it other than a tiny bit of black carbon-like buildup on the two contact points.  The starter still occasionally has a bit of a hesitation when starting, but only on rare occasions.  I suspect it could be the clutch switch or associated safety relay.  If it becomes common enough to be annoying, I will replace those parts of the circuit as well. 

Based on these recent experiences, I have to recommend to anyone: If you replace the fuel pump, replace its relay as well.  If you replace the starter, replace the starter relay too. 

These relays definitely go bad, and the randomness of it can be really annoying.  Keep the old ones as you can use them as diagnostic tools and emergency replacements in the future.  I keep my spare fuel pump relay in the ashtray.  The fuel pump is very small and light as well and can easily be changed on the road. I ordered a cheap $30 one as a spare so I don't have to fear another fuel system failure anytime soon.

[dirty_mech]

Bloody hell with this starter.... giving me issues AGAIN!  Sputtering when attempting to engage, like it's not getting consistent power.  I suspect the clutch starter safety switch may be on the fritz.  Another possibility that came to mind is the ignition starter switch.  Has anyone heard of an ignition starter switch going bad such that it would cause the starter to sputter and cut out like a bad electrical connection?

It's possible it is the starter itself, but I'm really hoping it's not because I just rebuilt the solenoid.  The starter will crank just fine most times, so it makes me think it's an electrical circuit issue.  Also, I noticed the issue is worst in the morning when I haven't driven the car recently.  It might not start for several seconds when attempting to turn over the engine first thing in the morning.  So the issue seems to be worst when the car hasn't been run recently and the temperature is low.

I've also read that Subarus which came with alarm systems installed at the factory have an additional relay somewhere in the starting system circuit.  I see the security system sticker on my window but never used the security system and don't even know if it operates at all.  I haven't been able to find any such second relay on my vehicle but I don't quite know what to look for or where.  If anyone know about the starter-security system relay, please enlighten me.

Edited May 1, 2021 by dirty_mech

[lmdew]

Your meter will lie to you, unless you are checking the circuit under LOAD!

Check out LOADpro.  A great addition to your toolbox.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYiY1c_b06w

 

[jonathan909]

Sure, it could be the keyswitch.  A (mechanical) switch is a switch is a switch, and the contacts can go bad like any other.

Actually, I was a little surprised that you did the starter rebuild rather than just replacing it, since (iIrc) you indicated you have a nearby pick+pull yard.  I've experienced exactly that rest/temperature sensitivity in starters, and I solved it with replacement, not a rebuild.

As for the security system, I should be the one to answer that, since (as I mentioned in the other thread) I kinda went overboard a couple of years ago in an effort to understand the Alpine remote entry system used from '98-'04 (or whatever it was).  The security module is a second little black box that communicates with the remote entry module.  I built a jig for testing and messing with them (both parts), but to be honest didn't play much with the security module, since I don't care about it - I was mainly interested in being able to reliably program the remote entry system (that is, to register the fobs to it), and there's been a long-standing question of why that programming stops working in these old cars.  To disable the security module (if you have one) you just unplug it.  It's usually found under the hand brake trim.  But that doesn't answer the relay question, and I honestly don't remember that part.  Will have to consult the drawings.

This is where the question comes full circle - my conclusion on the fob programming problem was that it stems from wear in the keyswitch.  But that's just a point of interest.  My guess is that your starter is just being a persistent PITA.

[1 Lucky Texan]

I THINK some folks have had issues with the commutator on the starter motor itself?

[jonathan909]

On 5/1/2021 at 12:11 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

I THINK some folks have had issues with the commutator on the starter motor itself?

Yeah, I've always assumed it was a dodgy commutator when it did the intermittent-a-little-worse-when-cold thing - you're actually spinning a roulette wheel and instead of red+black it's landing on start and no-start, then the temperature just adds a dollop of chaos.  So I replace it with a boneyard pull and don't wongleflute ("wongleflute"?  What I really meant was "kerfspluddle".) around with rebuilding.

Edited May 3, 2021 by jonathan909

[dirty_mech]

Yep, it was the starter.  Swallowed some pride and put in a new one, and now it starts right up like a champ.  Sounds like a totally different engine, in fact.  I was trying to follow standard diagnostic procedure of testing the cheapest and easiest to uninstall parts first, but it would seem that the starter is so much more likely to be the cause of any issue that you might as well start off by replacing that.  I don't regret replacing the relay because it did improve the responsiveness of the old starter and those do go bad as well, but now I know to not waste time trying to rebuild just the solenoid.

The one I bought was a rebuilt one from Mexico.  If they can do it there then we ought to be able to do it here.  The solenoid rebuild kit is a real tease otherwise.  Anyone got a clue what would be needed to repair the commutator inside the motor itself?  I assume they don't have a kit for rebuilding that like they do for the solenoid.

I didn't get a junkyard one because, despite there being nearly a dozen Subarus in in the local yard, none of them were the right model year with a manual transmission; 5 with an automatic but none with a manual.  So they weren't compatible according to the Subaru parts website, and I ended up going to a parts store instead.

Edited May 5, 2021 by dirty_mech

[jonathan909]

Fair enough.  As far as repairing the motor goes, it's pretty much like any DC motor, so both the brushes and commutator are going to wear and get dirty.  So maybe it just needs a cleaning and a new set of brushes, but maybe the wear to the commutator is such that it has to be replaced, and then you're futzing with the windings, so this is all stuff best left to shops that specialize in... wait for it... motor rewinding.  Sure, they used to do more of it here, but now it's a more disposable globalized society that doesn't want to pay North American rates for that kind of service, so "Mexico".  While I'm certain you can find someone locally who does that, I doubt you're going to want to pay them some multiple of the cost of a new starter.  Just how it is.