2007 Outback stalling

[89Ru]

5 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

That’s awesome.  I’ve never seen MAP sensor failure so I have no idea.  

Me neither. The MAP is easy to pull out, just a little prying with a screwdriver, the o-ring makes it tight. A little dab of dielectric grease on the o-ring to pop in a new one. 

[89Ru]

21 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

cyls 3 and 4 share half the coil.....

Good to know. Going to also get a new coil; during a test drive after the coil swap to the donor car the suspect coil created cyl 1-4 misfires in a previously well running car ('08 outback) before I even drove one block. It's looking like two separate problems. Coil is rusty, car came from the salty winterlands.

[brus brother]

the "2008 donor car" FAIL and now for Act II of "glaring looks from her teenage face" ;-)

be reminded that DAD is an acronym for Dumb As Dirt

[89Ru]

14 minutes ago, brus brother said:

the "2008 donor car" FAIL and now for Act II of "glaring looks from her teenage face" ;-)

be reminded that DAD is an acronym for Dumb As Dirt

For sure, especially now since her car won't start...probably bad crank sensor randomness- now that I'm in the doghouse I can try conversations about cats, usually a safe topic with her

[89Ru]

Running awesome now for the past week. Put a new NGK coil in and a cheap MAP sensor because three ben franklins is too big of a hit for an OEM MAP imho. OEM from a parts yard would do, subies are rare in my neck of the woods though. I'm the biggest skeptic but honestly it hasn't running this well in...ever. No more pre ignition or wandering idle. New wires and plug swap didn't help this problem.

So bottom line is: 

0. disassemble throttle body and clean throttle plate, so nasty

1. clean intake with seafoam spray

2. can of seafoam in gas

3. idle relearn procedure

3.5 new coil

4. new MAP

Kudos to all who got me through this.

[heartless]

so, are you out of the doghouse now? lol

Glad to hear you have it all sorted out and running well

[89Ru]

1 hour ago, heartless said:

so, are you out of the doghouse now? lol

Not really but I'm hopeful to move to the porch by spring. And now wife is touchy because the oven went lukewarm and pizza night was almost a bust. Teenage daughter moaned her sweet potato fries were too crunchy. Time for the oven catapult.

[idosubaru]

You think coil or map were likely culprit?

[89Ru]

On 1/16/2021 at 10:16 PM, idosubaru said:

You think coil or map were likely culprit?

Oh definitely. Nothing fixed the preignition until a new coil was dropped in. The only thing I didn't do to confirm was spray water on the coil, my electrical engineering self just couldn't justify wetting a transformer... The idle was crap until I disconnected the MAP connector then it was perfect, all else unchanged.

[89Ru]

Well the car was running great for nearly three months until the past week, when it started the rough idle and stalling again at stoplights when warm. It dies with gusto. Gives an ominous THUNK when it stalls. My wife was driving it when it first happened right in the middle of getting her first Covid vaccine. The lady giving the shot said "that didn't sound good."  Starts right back up although it likes to stall again at idle.  Seems to drive fine until another stop then it stalls. Stalled in the driveway twice. Its still running a relatively new aftermarket MAP sensor.

Disconnected the little three-wire connector from the MAP sensor on the intake and it runs fine with smooth idle, although the power seems a bit weak, with the CEL on. Drove it two days this week without any issues. I live about 500' above sea level. I don't recommend running without a MAP sensor for a monster hill climb to 12,000 feet. Going to bite the big one and get an OEM MAP from the dealer and see if that helps. 

Oh by the way I fixed the oven, had a bunch of cold solder joints on the control board connector for the temperature sensor and the lower element was burned out. Last pizza night was mostly a success until the pizza stone cracked, thankfully on the very last pizza.

[89Ru]

Premature head gasket failure after 35k miles.  

The troubleshooting: OEM MAP didn't solve it. Saga continues. Car has been at the Subie dealer for over 5 months chasing the hard stall issue. Subie mechanic tells me he has swapped over everything electrical/sensor related in the engine bay and no happiness. 

The bad: So now he thinks it is a head gasket. Is losing a LOT of oil spilling onto the exhaust and smoking from the engine bay. Exhaust gases in coolant. He thinks the stalling is caused by severe loss of compression from a huge leak. Once upon a time the stalling only occurred during the summer and only after warm-up. Now it stalls in the winter too. Wants $4K to fix it. I did the head gaskets about 35k miles ago, pulled the engine, had the heads machined by a pro, used OEM turbo gaskets, torqued to spec. Re-used head bolts, meticulous on cleaning head surfaces and head bolt holes and threads. 

The sad: Subie mechanic looked up the head bolt torque specs I used and says I used the wrong specs. I got the procedure from the 2007 factory shop manual. I noted when I did my 2008 EJ253 head gaskets (same engine as the 2007)  the torque procedure and specs were DIFFERENT one year to the next. Anyone else notice this? My 2008 is running awesome. No gasket leaks. Everything else was the same (machining, turbo gaskets, yada yada). 

Mech thinks the bottom end is fine. Compression is good, just bad head(s). 

So what to do?

Have the dealer fix it for a pile of cash?

Redo the heads myself and use the 2008 torque specs? Maybe throw a new set of head bolts in there. 

Spend $2500 for a JDM EJ253 and do an engine swap?

Any help is awesome.

[1 Lucky Texan]

in this case, I think the 'devil you know' is the best choice. re-do the heads.

[idosubaru]

17 hours ago, 89Ru said:

Premature head gasket failure after 35k miles.  

The troubleshooting: OEM MAP didn't solve it. Saga continues. Car has been at the Subie dealer for over 5 months chasing the hard stall issue. Subie mechanic tells me he has swapped over everything electrical/sensor related in the engine bay and no happiness. 

The bad: So now he thinks it is a head gasket. Is losing a LOT of oil spilling onto the exhaust and smoking from the engine bay. Exhaust gases in coolant. He thinks the stalling is caused by severe loss of compression from a huge leak. Once upon a time the stalling only occurred during the summer and only after warm-up. Now it stalls in the winter too. Wants $4K to fix it. I did the head gaskets about 35k miles ago, pulled the engine, had the heads machined by a pro, used OEM turbo gaskets, torqued to spec. Re-used head bolts, meticulous on cleaning head surfaces and head bolt holes and threads. 

The sad: Subie mechanic looked up the head bolt torque specs I used and says I used the wrong specs. I got the procedure from the 2007 factory shop manual. I noted when I did my 2008 EJ253 head gaskets (same engine as the 2007)  the torque procedure and specs were DIFFERENT one year to the next. Anyone else notice this? My 2008 is running awesome. No gasket leaks. Everything else was the same (machining, turbo gaskets, yada yada). 

Mech thinks the bottom end is fine. Compression is good, just bad head(s). 

So what to do?

Have the dealer fix it for a pile of cash?

Redo the heads myself and use the 2008 torque specs? Maybe throw a new set of head bolts in there. 

Spend $2500 for a JDM EJ253 and do an engine swap?

Any help is awesome.

 

There was a lot of confusion over EJ25 head gasket torque, I'm not sure why it was changed. But presumably it was for a reason, you may have stumbled on that reason.

Do you know the vehicles history prior to the last 35,000 miles (before the first time you replaced the headgasket)? 
Did the block surface seem reasonable?

If you don't suspect the block to be problematic then redoing the heads with the new torque values would be a reasonable choice.  But I can understand the interest in other options too. 

 

[el_freddo]

On 1/10/2023 at 5:43 AM, 89Ru said:

Is losing a LOT of oil spilling onto the exhaust and smoking from the engine bay. Exhaust gases in coolant. He thinks the stalling is caused by severe loss of compression from a huge leak

Did he do a compression check? This would easily identify the issue with one or two cylinders low on compression. 

I haven’t read the later FSM’s to notice a change in torque specs… but surely what you did would be up to the task. Seems more like this ongoing issue may have caused the dead head gasket issue providing you cleaned all the surfaces well/properly. Subarus are notorious for super clean mating surfaces when doing the HGs. 

To me, not that I visit mechanics often for anything more than tyres, alignments or roadworthies, the $4K job for the head gaskets from the dealer seems like a very good deal provided that includes parts and labour as a whole job! 

Plus it’s not a new to you vehicle so you know a bit of its history. Ask for the compression test or do one yourself to see what’s up and if the dealer’s mechanic is on point. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[89Ru]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:49 AM, idosubaru said:

 

There was a lot of confusion over EJ25 head gasket torque, I'm not sure why it was changed. But presumably it was for a reason, you may have stumbled on that reason.

Do you know the vehicles history prior to the last 35,000 miles (before the first time you replaced the headgasket)? 
Did the block surface seem reasonable?

If you don't suspect the block to be problematic then redoing the heads with the new torque values would be a reasonable choice.  But I can understand the interest in other options too. 

 

Car was new to me when I did the heads in 2018. Previous owner didn't even own it long enough to get the title in his name. I think he figured out the car had issues. I quizzed him at length on potential head gasket problems, even did an coolant exhaust gas test (negative of course) before buying it. You know how that ended. 

I prepped the block surfaces with scotch brite and a blade where needed. put a flat edge on the block. There is a long post on the first head install. Basically the first machine shop messed up the heads (sanded them) so I had a coolant leak and it wouldn't hold pressure after I bolted them down and filled the block with coolant (prior to engine install, was just basically being super cautious). So I took the heads to another shop. 

Strangely enough the engine has glued on pop-up temperature sensors on the firewall side of the heads. Like the kind that indicate an engine has overheated. Mine are not popped up. Maybe the engine was replaced during the previous previous owner's ownership and somebody thought to add the sensors for liability/warranty coverage? 

[89Ru]

4 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Did he do a compression check? This would easily identify the issue with one or two cylinders low on compression. 

I haven’t read the later FSM’s to notice a change in torque specs… but surely what you did would be up to the task. Seems more like this ongoing issue may have caused the dead head gasket issue providing you cleaned all the surfaces well/properly. Subarus are notorious for super clean mating surfaces when doing the HGs. 

To me, not that I visit mechanics often for anything more than tyres, alignments or roadworthies, the $4K job for the head gaskets from the dealer seems like a very good deal provided that includes parts and labour as a whole job! 

Plus it’s not a new to you vehicle so you know a bit of its history. Ask for the compression test or do one yourself to see what’s up and if the dealer’s mechanic is on point. 

Cheers 

Bennie

He says compression is good, presuming he means when cold. The suspicion is that the head gasket fails while operating and causes loss of compression. I asked him whether he verified loss of compression when hot and he said he didn't check that. 

[idosubaru]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:08 AM, 89Ru said:

Previous owner didn't even own it long enough to get the title in his name. I think he figured out the car had issues. 

Basically the first machine shop messed up the heads (sanded them) so I had a coolant leak and it wouldn't hold pressure

So I took the heads to another shop. 

Strangely enough the engine has glued on pop-up temperature sensors on the firewall side of the heads. Like the kind that indicate an engine has overheated. Mine are not popped up. Maybe the engine was replaced during the previous previous owner's ownership and somebody thought to add the sensors for liability/warranty coverage? 

 

Is it using coolant? I'd guess the coolant or oil getting into the combustion chamber is causing poor ignition and drivability issues, not compression loss. If it got really bad I'd expect it to be blowing exhuast gas into the coolant and impossible to mitigate overheating.

The tough part is the "wrong torque specs".  Are you sure it was the wrong specs?  If it weren't for that I'd be close to condemning this engine.  Sounds like it's been through D-Day without a helmet.

Two owners ago ditched it with some reworked or replacement parts (as indicated by the pop up sensors) but wasn't worth keeping or following through on
Prior owner - it was too bad or too cheap to fix
Somewhere in that mix was a autoshop that pawned it off without fixig it
Now there's more issues

I'm assuming too much and making it sound worse than it probably is.  But all of that is suspicious. 

Maybe with some flat heads, block check, and proper torque down it's all good, don't know. 

[89Ru]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:56 PM, idosubaru said:

 

Is it using coolant? I'd guess the coolant or oil getting into the combustion chamber is causing poor ignition and drivability issues, not compression loss. If it got really bad I'd expect it to be blowing exhuast gas into the coolant and impossible to mitigate overheating.

The tough part is the "wrong torque specs".  Are you sure it was the wrong specs?  If it weren't for that I'd be close to condemning this engine.  Sounds like it's been through D-Day without a helmet.

Two owners ago ditched it with some reworked or replacement parts (as indicated by the pop up sensors) but wasn't worth keeping or following through on
Prior owner - it was too bad or too cheap to fix
Somewhere in that mix was a autoshop that pawned it off without fixig it
Now there's more issues

I'm assuming too much and making it sound worse than it probably is.  But all of that is suspicious. 

Maybe with some flat heads, block check, and proper torque down it's all good, don't know. 

Using a LOT of oil. Maybe a quart every 2-300 miles. Oil turns dark quickly after a change. Not using coolant or the typical gasket problems you would think of like gurgles in the cabin on startup and acceleration from exhaust bubbles being piped through, or coolant overflow tank rising and radiator level dropping, with no transfers into the rad on cooldown. None of that. Trust me I had all of that in the initial HG failure. And burping doesn't fix it. That gurgle gives me the shivers lol. I don't recall problems with oil on the first HG failure. Not overheating now. Some oil smoke on startup from oil in the chamber but that clears. Regarding the torque specs, just relaying what the mechanic told me. I sent him my 2007 and 2008 fsm head bolt specs. He claimed he had never seen the 2007 specs I sent him and thought I was using Haynes. 

During work on the exhaust I noted wet oil on the exhaust port on #2 after dropping the front cat. So there is likely a lot of oil in the chamber mucking things up. When I did the head gaskets I didn't tear down the heads to the point of replacing the valve seals or lapping the valve seats. 

[ocei77]

Check blowby on oil rings.

After warmup hold clean paper in exhaust and see if you get oil.

[89Ru]

11 hours ago, ocei77 said:

Check blowby on oil rings.

After warmup hold clean paper in exhaust and see if you get oil.

Just took possession of the car, after a solid 6 months at the subaru dealer. I'm embarrassed what I paid for the diagnostic fee. Incidentally the car behaved itself on a 20 minute drive city/hwy. Idled in the driveway like nothing was wrong. No stalling. No misfires. No cel. 

Blowby was present on the oil cap several years ago, so I presume it is no better. I'm sure it is burning oil. Crawled underneath. Lots of oil, mostly from the timing belt cover. This isn't new, and I thought it was from either bad crank/cam seals (all replaced when I did the heads but probably not oem, my bad) or the oil pump needs a reseal. Head gaskets are dry both sides, top and bottom. Coolant overflow is a bit lower than typical (I like to keep it filled 3/4) so its possibly consuming coolant. Rad is full. Also, maybe I'm reading into this and searching but there is a faint thump/knock sitting at idle I can hear in the cabin. Can't hear it in the engine bay. I don't recall hearing that before. Mechanic said he did a leak down test and all cylinders were "low" but he said was normal for age of car. 

The car has had oil consumption ever since I bought it. I'm kinda used to that with subarus, but this isn't "normal." Recall this car had a clogged cat a while back, after I did the heads. That was fun to figure out. Not sure if its related to internal oil leaks. Someone help me get this engine on the catapult. 

[ocei77]

If it's leaking oil from under the timing cover it can only be the cam or crank seals.

I've routinely used Fel pro for years and have never had issues with them.

Can't speak for other brands.

Check #4 plug for oil.

Also remove the cam sensor and make sure it is not covered in oil and dirt giving bad signal. 

Check the crank sensor for all the teeth .

 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

try cleaning the crank pos.sensor. They can get metal debris over time and cause issues.

[el_freddo]

Oil weeping always occurs with the cam retainer plate, especially if it’s not resealed when replacing HGs. 

Even then there’s no guarantee the leak won’t stay away for a great deal of time… 

Cheers 

Bennie

[89Ru]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:03 AM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

try cleaning the crank pos.sensor. They can get metal debris over time and cause issues.

There IS some gunk on the crank sensor. Way back I swapped this sensor out, no happiness. Not saying it isn't playing a factor....will clean it for sure. 

[89Ru]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:11 PM, ocei77 said:

If it's leaking oil from under the timing cover it can only be the cam or crank seals.

I've routinely used Fel pro for years and have never had issues with them.

Can't speak for other brands.

Check #4 plug for oil.

Also remove the cam sensor and make sure it is not covered in oil and dirt giving bad signal. 

Check the crank sensor for all the teeth .

 

 

Pulled the engine, tb covers, intake, drivers side cam and inner tb covers. Crank seal is wet but not leaving a huge trail. Cam seals are both dry. Plugs #2 and #4 are wet with oil. Crank pulley has all its teeth, maybe some of them are need a good brushing tho. Cam sensor is shiny goodness. 

Still digging. Have to pull the drivers side head. Not sure how far this is going.