Isolating Front Engine Rotating Noise..Common Problems?

[subaru1988]

I got the timing squared away on my car, and it actually runs pretty nice. I can let it sit and idle for as long as I want now, as opposed to 30 seconds or so before it wanted to stall. The issue was TOO MUCH timing. I believe someone messed with my dizzy, and the timing was WAY off, and it was this way for years. I should have verified TDC with the cap post/rotor/flywheel marks years ago, but whatever. It used to ping pretty bad at part throttle up hills for years before I undertook this whole project, and I get NOTHING now @ 20 BTDC. It was nice to drive it again, the temp needle is just under 1/2 way up, and 2 TBSP of Subaru Coolant Conditioner seems to have helped my weeping water pump bolt, but now..

A noise has cropped up  on the front of the engine. It "sounds" like a noisy bearing or something rubbing, but I'm not sure. At cold start, it's obvious it's there, but when the car warms up, it's still there but nowhere close to being as apparent. Windows rolled up, you can hardly hear it cold or warm. That said, after the time and effort into this car so far, I want it right. I've got about 70 miles or so on the car after all the work I did to it.

I took off the drivebelts today, and I started it for 10 seconds or so to isolate the power steering pump, alternator, and water pump as NOT being the issue. The noise was still there. What are the chances one of my brand new tensioners is bad?! Has anybody had that happen? Any other common things to look for that could cause noises? Anybody have an idea what that washer/shim looking thing is on the back of the oil pump pulley? I'm wondering if that could even be the noise source.. Can a timing belt that needs to be retensioned cause that type of noise? FWIW, they seem to be looser cold and after I come back from a drive, they do tighten up a fair amount with the thumb test. I'm used to the car with the belt COVERS ON. How much noisier is it really with them OFF?

Thank God I left the belt covers off while I'm doing the shakedown on this car 

Edited January 21, 2021 by subaru1988
Dumb mistake ;p

[Dee2]

If it happens while driving, it could be the wheel bearings.

I used to get a "rubbing" sound from front end of my car and it was the wheel bearings.

Were the bearings redone recently ?  If not maybe they're due. 

If they were, sometimes they need to be re-torqued after driving for a while.

 

If it happens at idle, then it might be the idler bearings for the timing belts.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Dee2

[subaru1988]

1 hour ago, Dee2 said:

If it happens while driving, it could be the wheel bearings.

I used to get a "rubbing" sound from front end of my car and it was the wheel bearings.

Were the bearings redone recently ?  If not maybe they're due. 

If they were, sometimes they need to be re-torqued after driving for a while.

 

If it happens at idle, then it might be the idler bearings for the timing belts.

The noise starts at a cold start, does it while I warm it up at idle for a few minutes, settles down some, and after the car is at op temp, it's barely there. After it's warmed up, I can't hear it much outside the car, and inside, I don't hear it at all.

If it was a tensioner or idler pulley bearing, that would really suck because every single one is brand new out of a package. The tensioners are GMB, and the idler pulley is a made in Japan Melling, which looks an awful lot like an OEM one. I've heard people reuse old idlers/tensioners and have no issues. I checked them all before installing, and they were "firm" to spin with no sounds. 

I've read arguments for and against retensioning the timing  belts. I wonder about that because it nearly goes away when the engine is warmed up, and the belts have a fair amount more tension when I finger check it. I'm also wondering how much of a factor my not running the front belt covers is. I'm used to it with those on; I'm not sure if leaving them off makes the whole shebang noisier.

Edited January 22, 2021 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

If the tensioners and idler bearings are good, they will be quiet.

Good idea, removeing all of the v belts for a quick check.  

Usually,  the dead bearings I've had feel dry like no grease, or crunchy if really bad.  They should feel a little dragging from the normal grease.  Try using a pice of 1/2" to 1" ID flexible hose as a stethoscope.   Be wary of getting the probe end near anything windy.  That should help narrow down the noise source. 

[Dee2]

5 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

I'm also wondering how much of a factor my not running the front belt covers is. I'm used to it with those on; I'm not sure if leaving them off makes the whole shebang noisier.

When I took mine off I couldn't tell any difference. The engine noise was the same to me.  I don't think the covers affect noise of the engine.

 

[idosubaru]

12 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

I'm also wondering how much of a factor my not running the front belt covers is. I'm used to it with those on; I'm not sure if leaving them off makes the whole shebang noisier.

I dont' think that makes a noticeable audible difference to the extent that you'd wonder "hmmm, is something wrong?

17 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

IAnybody have an idea what that washer/shim looking thing is on the back of the oil pump pulley?

The belt guide?  It's not loose, bent, or rubbing is it?   That guide, or lip, can get bent when people try to pull the sprocket off. 

If the noise is coming from the front and only the timing belt is causing it - then it sounds like the covers need to come off and hit every bolt of each pulley with a stethscope while it's running. 

[Dwayne Oxford]

Had similar with my '83, was loose distributor shaft.

[subaru1988]

11 hours ago, DaveT said:

If the tensioners and idler bearings are good, they will be quiet.

Good idea, removeing all of the v belts for a quick check.  

Usually,  the dead bearings I've had feel dry like no grease, or crunchy if really bad.  They should feel a little dragging from the normal grease.  Try using a pice of 1/2" to 1" ID flexible hose as a stethoscope.   Be wary of getting the probe end near anything windy.  That should help narrow down the noise source. 

I like the hose idea. I have a good amount of it laying around, and I'll give that a try. The new "pulleys" I put on were just like you said- "a little dragging from the normal grease" with no noise at all. I find it hard to believe one of these would fail with less than 100 miles on it. Actually, a bad bearing wouldn't seem to be a heat related noise (ie. more noise when cold, less when hot) only, right?

10 hours ago, Dee2 said:

When I took mine off I couldn't tell any difference. The engine noise was the same to me.  I don't think the covers affect noise of the engine.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of MY perception of engine noise with the car since I'm used to the covers being on. After watching some of Fox's old videos, I've come to the conclusion that these engines aren't exactly quiet runners. That and my car is all I have to go by with what is "normal".

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

I dont' think that makes a noticeable audible difference to the extent that you'd wonder "hmmm, is something wrong?

The belt guide?  It's not loose, bent, or rubbing is it?   That guide, or lip, can get bent when people try to pull the sprocket off. 

If the noise is coming from the front and only the timing belt is causing it - then it sounds like the covers need to come off and hit every bolt of each pulley with a stethscope while it's running. 

No, it's a silver piece right behind the oil pump pulley. Pic below, sorry for the size. It's just there. It's not attached to anything, and it moves around by touching it.

I'm just trying to do process of elimination here like taking the drive belts off. As I said in my first post, the covers ARE off. I left them off for shaking all of this down after I put everything together, and I'm glad I did. If I wasn't worried about road salt/mag chloride in the winter, I'd frankly leave them off.

As for the distributor shaft, I've checked that distributor A LOT ( had it in and out for other reasons), and it had no play or noise. That was the first place I listened, and it seemed quiet back there, luckily.

Lots of good info, and as always, thanks for the input.

Edited January 22, 2021 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

Sounds like you've thoroughly gone over this thing so I doubt this is it because you would have already noticed, but....since this isn't normal...

I would guess that mysterious ring may be the culprit - there shouldn't be anything movable by touching it residing behind the oil pump sprocket. Maybe it's shaking or rotating or interfering in some way?  I can't see the picture at all - I'm just going by your description. 

 

[subaru1988]

7 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Sounds like you've thoroughly gone over this thing so I doubt this is it because you would have already noticed, but....since this isn't normal...

I would guess that mysterious ring may be the culprit - there shouldn't be anything movable by touching it residing behind the oil pump sprocket. Maybe it's shaking or rotating or interfering in some way?  I can't see the picture at all - I'm just going by your description. 

 

I had a few minutes, so I went out with a hose and a funnel stuck on the end to make a "megaphone" so to speak. I found that funnel tip on a Youtube video, thought it was pretty cool to try with the hose suggestion. Anyway, I put the end of the hose ON the idler pulley bolt, no noise. I put it as close as I dared to the DRIVER side tensioner, no noise. Passenger side tensioner, nothing. I did it when I started it at fast idle, and when it was warmed up at an idle while I checked after checking the idle speed (700, no need to mess with the SPFI, luckily).

I found this thread...This honestly sounds like my issue, especially this part about hearing an "extra jingle from under the hood". It seems to me like this is quite a rinky dink way of putting a guide on the back of the pulley. According to this, it's safe to cut it off and run it. I don't see why it wouldn't be, as many here run without back belt covers, and the cam sprocket has no guide on it. Who knows how long it's been this way.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by subaru1988
Clarity..

[el_freddo]

Try using some metal glue or permanent locktite on it to fix that ring in place. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[DaveT]

If the back belt guide is detached from the oil pump pulley, don't leave it there.  The belt should never be pushing hard against the sides, but they are there to help keep them tracking correctly.   You won't be able to buy a new pulley,  but a used one might be findable.  Or try to repair it.  The steel ring is staked onto the cenet part.  I don't think the center is weldable.  I might try brazing if I had to fix one.

[subaru1988]

Honestly, that thing has probably been like that for years and years and tens of thousands of miles on my car. I've heard that "sound" more than a few times with the hood up and covers on. I just chocked it up to belt and pulley noise and didn't think about it beyond that. I wouldn't be surprised if it came off with age at some point since it was on there cheaply or through belt breakage years ago. 

It comes down to the pros/cons of which way to go considering parts availability, effort involved (read here the oil pump pulley is a real PITA, but FSM says only 13 lbs?), and others' experiences with this issue, I guess.

Edited January 24, 2021 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

The oil pump pulley comes right off - with an impact wrench, or once removed,  clamp the rotor in a vise with soft jaws or wood blocks.  Mine all have the pulleys intact.  I think I may have one used one that had the flange loose, so I swapped the pulley for a good one.

[idosubaru]

On 1/22/2021 at 3:56 PM, idosubaru said:

Sounds like you've thoroughly gone over this thing so I doubt this is it because you would have already noticed, but....since this isn't normal...

I would guess that mysterious ring may be the culprit - there shouldn't be anything movable by touching it residing behind the oil pump sprocket. Maybe it's shaking or rotating or interfering in some way?  I can't see the picture at all - I'm just going by your description. 

 

That’s it. You don’t need to remove the oil pump but even that is easy on these. 

Remove belts and remove pulley.  That’s it. No need to remove the pump. 

There are holes in the face of the oil pump pulley.  The right tool inserted into them will grab areas behind the sprocket and hold it steady to loosen the bolt if you don’t have an impact gun. A 1/4” extension comes to mind but that’s just a hunch. 

once removed try to peen it back into place or tack weld it. Wrap it in cool damp rags to absorb heat. Don’t run a continuous bead, that’ll overheat things too much  

If that sounds like too much work, it could be carefully removed - cutoff insitu without doing any work. 

[subaru1988]

14 hours ago, idosubaru said:

That’s it. You don’t need to remove the oil pump but even that is easy on these. 

Remove belts and remove pulley.  That’s it. No need to remove the pump. 

There are holes in the face of the oil pump pulley.  The right tool inserted into them will grab areas behind the sprocket and hold it steady to loosen the bolt if you don’t have an impact gun. A 1/4” extension comes to mind but that’s just a hunch. 

once removed try to peen it back into place or tack weld it. Wrap it in cool damp rags to absorb heat. Don’t run a continuous bead, that’ll overheat things too much  

If that sounds like too much work, it could be carefully removed - cutoff insitu without doing any work. 

I guess it depends on how easy the pulley comes off for me if I try it. My pulley has one hole, not a few like the cam sprockets, otherwise I'd use the pin wrench I used on that to at least try to hold the pulley.

I don't weld ( I wish I did, I've been wanting to get into it), so I don't have the tools or the know how, so that's not an option at all. El Freddo made a good suggestion that just MIGHT work, but there's always the chance the thread locker lets go, and I'm back at square one again. Same goes for peening it.

I read in the linked thread I posted that cutting it off is not the worst option for this- as in try to fix it next timing belt change...which is 50K miles or so. At 258K, I'll be happy with another 25-30K out of the car. Then again, I said the same thing 30K ago, and it still runs great

I think you mentioned you cut it on a few cars if I'm not mistaken, another poster suggested it, and the OP in that thread wound up doing it with not a lot of fuss. I believe I have some Aviation snips around if that's what it comes down to, or maybe I can wrangle up something smaller to cut with.

15 hours ago, DaveT said:

The oil pump pulley comes right off - with an impact wrench, or once removed,  clamp the rotor in a vise with soft jaws or wood blocks.  Mine all have the pulleys intact.  I think I may have one used one that had the flange loose, so I swapped the pulley for a good one.

If I would have known that this car would've lasted this long, I would've done like you and grabbed extra parts here and there, and the oil pump would have been on the list. The problem is for the oil pump, there are no new parts, and used parts around here are non-existent. I screw it up for this rinky dink part, and the whole car is screwed for who knows how long.

I'm in "Subaru country". There are still a TON of newer Subaru's on the road, but this older generation were rode hard, used up, and already had their cycle in the salvage yards. I haven't seen one in a few years.

Edited January 24, 2021 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

Yep, I’ve removed it before and seen one that was already like that when I came across it (either I bought it or worked on someone else’s car). I don’t recall which vehicle or if it was temporary or for the long haul, but I’ve never seen issues from it.

just cut it off insitu. 

Thread locker won’t work. Glue or peening will never work on the vehicle.  it would have to be removed at which point I’d get a replacement used one or have a buddy tack it back on or mail it to me to do it. No point in making questionable meager repair attempts if you go through the effort to remove it. 

Please prove me wrong!  I’d love to see you find an easy on the car repair...I just don’t see that happening here. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by idosubaru

[subaru1988]

I had no idea what I was looking at the first time when I had it all apart. I looked in the FSM, and didn't see it, and that's why I called it a shim/washer.That said, I know it's been an "issue" a long time- probably years and many thousands of miles. I've heard it making noise behind the covers as I said. Along the same lines, the passenger side belt at one time literally carved a 3mm deep or so 3 inch "trench" in the back cover from running on the back of the the cam sprocket. I did my best to Dremel it all out while still leaving some cover. That's not ideal either, but it didn't cause that belt to break, and that belt was fine when I took it apart.

Cool of you to offer to weld it! I wish I could do it. I don't weld, and I wish I did. I'll keep any eye out  for ANY used stuff that might pop up, but these cars are long gone from the roads here. I don't expect a "real fix" to be done with it on the car other than...snip, snip.

[idosubaru]

Yep just snip snip it.

it’s been awhile since I’ve seen one like this - if I remember right is the ring way too loose to provide any guidance or guardrail for the belt right?  

Or does it still have the ability to limit out and keep the belt on track?

I seem to think that’s not the case and it’s basically doing nothing.  If the belt walks off line, it’ll still have guides at the cam sprockets that keep it from going very far, I can’t imagine it wandering if all else is good.

If so, then it’s probably worth removing to avoid the risk of getting drawn into the belt path or deformed and rubbing the belt.

Belts rubbing through covers is common. I’ve probably seen it 10 times.no big deal as long as it’s not because something is imminently wrong.

You could post here for a pulley in the parts wanted forum. Someone will have one.  But sounds like it’s not needed, snip snip..!

[DaveT]

There are no guides on the cam sprockets.  That guide is the only one on the engine side (vs radiator side) for that belt.  The other belt has the crank pulley, and the one in between the belts.  But if your belt happens to track well, you can get away without it.

[subaru1988]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Yep just snip snip it.

it’s been awhile since I’ve seen one like this - if I remember right is the ring way too loose to provide any guidance or guardrail for the belt right?  

Or does it still have the ability to limit out and keep the belt on track?

I seem to think that’s not the case and it’s basically doing nothing.  If the belt walks off line, it’ll still have guides at the cam sprockets that keep it from going very far, I can’t imagine it wandering if all else is good.

If so, then it’s probably worth removing to avoid the risk of getting drawn into the belt path or deformed and rubbing the belt.

Belts rubbing through covers is common. I’ve probably seen it 10 times.no big deal as long as it’s not because something is imminently wrong.

You could post here for a pulley in the parts wanted forum. Someone will have one.  But sounds like it’s not needed, snip snip..!

The ring isn't just too loose..It's off the pulley completely. When I had it all apart, I moved it around and settled on leaving it against the block after wondering what it was. Since I didn't know much about this engine, I thought it was like a little guard for the seal or some kind of shim or weird type of spring. I think it stayed there for a few drives, and it worked itself loose again so it can make noise and make me think my new tensioners were going bad already  . At this point, it's the noise that's the nuisance more than anything. As I said earlier, I've heard the noise before, but it was muffled enough for me to think it was wearing pulleys or a noisy P/S pump.

I took the Dremel to the covers and now the sprocket on the passenger side has the same clearance the driver does. As a matter of fact, the idler pulley was an area where the belt was also rubbing the covers to no real harm. It was a failed water pump gasket leak that did my belt in, plus years of crud with new belts being installed in all that muck by prior jobs. I CLEANED it all.

I'll be keeping any eye out for spare parts online and around the area. Maybe something will pop up.

DaveT, lucky for me the belt is tracking more toward the front of the pulley than the rear of it. They're both tracking pretty nice IMHO. I checked this a few times after the initial start and now a few times after driving it.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

Yep that’s what I thought.  It’s pointless then. 

The covers usually ride against the pulleys if the mounting points are damaged. Cobble together a repair with JB weld or creative plastic welding or using some mounts and not others, or find used covers.