2005 2.5 Vin B code Engine head gaskets and timing belts

[bullseye451]

Hello all

Again asking the masses on here for advise. I’m replacing the head gaskets and water pump, timing belt. On both my Subaru Outbacks 2005,2007 both are failing at the same time. 
Can you give me your best options on manufacturer of the kits I need. I can find a place to buy them so you don’t upset the forum rules if there are any for that.

i was going to drop the money on Fel-pro and Gates. Not quite sure about the head bolts yet. But if you know of a kit that does it all that would be great. 
Thanks in advance 

 

[jonathan909]

Both water pumps failing?  I don't have anything as new as yours, but I have yet to have a water pump fail, so I don't routinely replace them as part of a head gasket and/or timing belt job.  I'm making a point of experimenting with head gaskets, and so far the answer is clear:  If it's multilayer metal, good.  If it's not MLM (i.e. "composite"), you're likely to be replacing it again in a year.  In my experience to date, manufacturer hasn't mattered, though Actual Experts may point out that my head's up my @$$.  Timing belt:  Mitsuboshi only.  And while you're doing it, replace the toothed idler - it seems to have a much higher incidence of failure than the smooth ones (one of the toothed idlers seizing caused my only catastrophic timing failure to date).  I'd have to check on whose I used, but they were Japanese.  Rock has a choice of HGs and other gaskets that are fine, but they don't (or didn't last time I bought them) have anything good for the timing parts, so for those I think I tracked down someone on ebay for the best price.

I'm doing my second full rebuild now.  For my first one I bought the Enginetech full-meal-deal kit, but mainly because the HGs in that kit were trash, this time I'm a-la-carte-ing the sub-kits I need.

Oh - head bolts.  Some of the  bolts I got from Enginetech were, um, "less than straight", but I used 'em anyway.  But when their head gaskets leaked out, I re-used my old factory bolts.  I don't think I've read a definitive answer regarding re-use of bolts; would like to know what the informed consensus is.

Edited March 31, 2021 by jonathan909

[bullseye451]

Well the water pumps are getting replaced because they are recommended to replace them at the same time as the timing belt. I looked at Rock because I use them all the time. They do have several timing belts to choose from I’ll check on the Japanese options 

thanks

[jonathan909]

Sure, but whose recommendation?  The people selling the pumps?  Until I see one fail, I'm unlikely to be convinced that perfectly good working pumps need replacement.

Rock doesn't carry the strongly recommended brands of belts and idlers, otherwise I would have bought them there as well.

[GeneralDisorder]

We see water pump failures all the time. We replace them EVERY timing belt change. Same for all the idlers, tensioner, and the thermostat (OEM or Tama only). 

Gates is Chinese garbage.

Same for Fail-Pro - US garbage. They don't know Japanese engines. Junk.

OEM 770 or 642 gaskets from the turbo engine. 

Aisin for the water pump. NTN, Koyo, and NSK for the components.

Re-use the bolts. Clean them with mineral spirits. DO NOT wire wheel them. We NEVER replace bolts. Not a failure point.

GD

Edited March 31, 2021 by GeneralDisorder

[heartless]

plus 1000 on what GD said...

do NOT go with Gates or Felpro, unless you want to do all this work again and/or possible do major damage to the engines

Gates kits used to be ok, but not anymore. Not for several years now

Edited March 31, 2021 by heartless

[idosubaru]

Howdy, I work in Morgantown, but there are quiet a few of those...lol

Just to make sure - you realize that if the belt breaks those engines usually bend lots of valves and you're into major engine work? That's one reason this is important.  I've bought Subarus (very cheap) with that engine with "new" timing components that were broken and had bent valves. So these recommendations aren't just archaic, old school, uncle bob, I heard it from my neighbor stories. 

I'd install new Subaru belt, timing belt idlers, tensioner, water pump.  Done. 

If you want to be cost effective - install a new Subaru belt and cogged pulley ($100 for both).  Those are the most common failure items by light years.  Check the tensioner while it's apart, if the hydraulic seal is wet (leaking), replace it.

You can avoid the water pump - if you're doing this work yourself they're not hard to do at all, they don't fail often, and they just leak.  It's not going to strand you, it'll give a warning when you notice drips/smoke/low coolant, not a big deal if you pay attention.  I'd leave the original water pump before I'd install an aftermarket one.

If you do go with a lower cost option -  particularly if you're using aftermarket parts - consider checking the components after 2 years or 50,000 miles.  I wouldn't expect 100k from them, but then again, if they do fail they seemingly fail at random mileages, not just early. 

[Rampage]

Excellent info above.

A Gates timing belt broke in 2 months.

A reman water pump leaked out the weep hole 2 days after I installed it. I put the old one back in.

I have seen the ball bearings fall out of the cheaper idler pulleys.

[bullseye451]

Thanks guys!

you guys were a huge help! I need to return my Gates crap unfortunately. I should have waited to order until I read all of your recommendations. I need to get this done ASAP so the first Subaru is getting Gates timing belt and Enginetech gaskets. Hopefully it works out. Unless I hit the dealer up with a new belt. 
I travel lots so I need to blitz through work when I can. So I pushed the first car parts last night before I got your good info.

I’ll round up the good parts for the next go around. I don’t mind pulling these motors. They are about the easiest to deal with next to a muscle car. So I will try to blend this one and hope it lasts.

[idosubaru]

2 hours ago, bullseye451 said:

Thanks guys!

you guys were a huge help! I need to return my Gates crap unfortunately. I should have waited to order until I read all of your recommendations. I need to get this done ASAP so the first Subaru is getting Gates timing belt and Enginetech gaskets. Hopefully it works out. Unless I hit the dealer up with a new belt. 
I travel lots so I need to blitz through work when I can. So I pushed the first car parts last night before I got your good info.

I’ll round up the good parts for the next go around. I don’t mind pulling these motors. They are about the easiest to deal with next to a muscle car. So I will try to blend this one and hope it lasts.

 

I don’t know which are worse than others but non OEM, Fel Pro or Cometic gaskets are the ones seen failing regularly within a year. I wouldn’t use anything but OEM headgaskets.  Top off the fluids and the thing will keep driving until you can get Subaru.

Someone might get me to bend on timing components, I would basically refuse to install any gasket I didn’t just mentioned.

Edited April 1, 2021 by idosubaru

[bullseye451]

Will do! I’ll hit the dealer for head gaskets

[bullseye451]

One last question for you. Do you know of any way of gaining so more performance out of these motors? I looked for hi performance cams but they only list for turbo engines.

[GeneralDisorder]

There is no additional performance to be had. They are already as volumetrically efficient as they are going to get. 

GD

[1 Lucky Texan]

You cam make your car more fun to throw around the corners. You might free-up a pony or 2 stripping weight from the car.

But there's nothing more to be had from the engine you have.

Edited April 2, 2021 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

Best to enjoy it for what it is than make it something it will never be.

If you just like to tinker and novelty (we’ve all been there), do whatever you want. None of it will make a performance difference except going harder on the gas pedal maybe. But also, since nothing will improve - none of the options are better or worse than any other so if you want a short throw shifter or shiny muffler or trunk wing or aftermarket filter, turbo scoop have at it. Liking a car helps keep people in them and maintain them longer so it’s not a total practical waste. How do you think some of us still drive 1980s Subarus!!!?  Lol. 

[bullseye451]

Okay wow I would never had thought nobody would have squeezed more HP out of these motors. Porting heads or headers, cams. Not a big deal just checking. I have other toys for my power fix.  By the way Morgantown Pa.?

Edited April 2, 2021 by bullseye451

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, bullseye451 said:

Okay wow I would never had thought nobody would have squeezed more HP out of these motors. Porting heads or headers, cams. Not a big deal just checking. I have other toys for my power fix.  By the way Morgantown Pa.?

People have squeezed a lot more power out of them. Forced induction.  For more power most people start with a more capable platform.  

What you’ve suggested has been done. I’ve dabbled in minor attempts. not worth it. Gobs of work for tiny returns. These aren’t V8s or forced induction.

Delta makes cams for Subarus, call them up. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I think it's like generaldisorder said, the engines are already maxed-out. I think partly because they have to be; AWD presents about 20% frictional loss compared to 13% for 2WD. Doesn't mean the engines are slouches because there's no room to get much more from them, heck, they get used in homebuilt aircraft. They general design of them IS getting a little old though.

And other makes of cars often get engine swaps to get more power. Some folks have found wrecked WRXes or other turbo models and swapped-in the engine or engine and drive train. Or done H6 swaps.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

The engine makes about 175 brake HP. That's from a 2.5L 4 valve-per-cylinder engine. Scale that up - that's the equivalent of a 5.0 (302) Mustang making 350 brake HP - the Fox Body era 302 made between 245 and 300 HP in stock form. On those it's common to change the exhaust and cam and get up to around 350..... as you can see the Subaru engine is basically already there. You have only 14.7 psi at sea level to push air into the engine..... the little 2.5 is about as volumetrically efficient as it's going to get (well above 90% at WOT). Thus gains to be had are minimal and VERY expensive. Cams could move the power up in the RPM range and you might show an increase in brake HP - probably wouldn't be able to feel it. You would have to tune the computer to take advantage (more cost) and the higher RPM wouldn't be accounted for in the transmission or rear end gearing limiting it's use. 

To turbocharge an NA model is going to start at about $20,000 to have it done at a shop. Vastly easier and more economical to just buy a turbo model of the same chassis. But honestly the turbo 05/06 OBXT is a pile of dung. They had severe reliability problems unless upgraded at huge expense. The NA models aren't much better - being early CANBUS cars they have..... problems. 

GD

[bullseye451]

Things changed since I last posted this. My daughters 05 Outback was hit so I picked up a 06 Outback that needs a new engine. So I was going to do a swap. The engine in the 06 was torn down to a short block before I bought it. One thing I noticed is that the water pumps and the exhaust are different.
Is there anything else that I didn’t see that I need to swap on the 05 engine to do a full swap without any headaches? I’m hoping that’s all that different. Otherwise I’ll have to fix the bodywork on the 05 to get it on the road.