EA82T ECU Tuning Options

[SiriusBlack]

Hey all, I have an 87 XT coupe with the EA82T engine and i'm looking at tuning options for finer control. I was originally going to replace the ECU with a fully tunable Megasquirt 3, But someone had mentioned using a piggyback Power Commander Tuner https://www.dynojet.com/power-commander/ It was one post, but he had said if you changed the connectors on this tuner it could be used on our early ECUs even though it is designed for bikes? I'm curious if anyone else knows anything about this or  how I might go about it. It sounds like it should be easier and quicker than a full ECU swap, as well as giving you the option of unplugging it and running off the stock ECU if something goes wrong. From what I read it is more than one of those ridiculous chips that just enrichens the fuel air mixture. This actually has 2 tunable fuel maps as well as ignition tunes, possibly opening up switching to distributorless timing and finer tuning of the timing? Thoughts and help on this would be great., alternatives too.

 

As always thanks in advance.

[GeneralDisorder]

Stock ECU is junk. Don't try to *manipulate* it's digits with some piggy back box. That's just junk being assimilated by more junk. 

And MegaGarbage is also junk. It's old now and they never work the way you think (hope) they will. 

The LINK ECU's have the EA82 optical trigger programmed into them (since it's identical to the Nissan 360 Optical pattern). They will easily run the EA82T and then later an EJ when you bag up that hot garbage and send it to make beer cans like you should have already done. 

GD

[el_freddo]

Yes! GD, I was hoping you’d come through! Good to know the link will do both engines - as you say, ready for the EJ! 

I agree with GD about the EJ conversion. If your EA82T is performing well, the only mods you should be doing is everything you can to keep it that way - keep the cooling system operating 100% is usually the key.

Cheers 

Bennie

[moosens]

CTS , find a genuine one if you can. If you haven’t needed one yet chances are good you will if you keep the EA82T 

Had the whole set of hoses at one time but no longer do. That foil wrapped one at the turbo , that’s one that’ll cause issues. All those pre-formed hoses, find what you can. 
 

And lots of archived info on intercoolers. 
 

Closed air system, keep it tight. 

[carfreak85]

15 hours ago, moosens said:

CTS , find a genuine one if you can. If you haven’t needed one yet chances are good you will if you keep the EA82T 

Still available from the dealership.

[GeneralDisorder]

2 hours ago, carfreak85 said:

Still available from the dealership.

With the LINK you can use any CTS you want. Such as widely available GM sensors that are like $10-$20. 

GD 

[moosens]

But that’s an out of pocket expense. Don’t get me wrong , if you really want it on the road right you spend the money. 
 

But limping it along stock-ish on a budget ain’t so uncool. I’m a dinosaur who drives mechanical dinosaurs so pardon that perspective. 

[SiriusBlack]

At the risk of starting an argument GD. Have you ever tried to fine tune an EA82T? Have you used a mega squirt or piggyback module on THIS engine. I'm wondering what your first hand experience on this topic is.

[GeneralDisorder]

My first hand experience (besides owning an in-ground AWD DynoJet and a Subaru tuning shop where I employ one of the most experienced Subaru tuners in the business - seriously he has the 3rd COBB Pro-Tuner license ever issued back in 2003) is personally building a megasquirt from a bare circuit board and having nothing but problems with that garbage. You want mine? It's collecting dust in a box along with a completely custom crank and cam trigger simulator you can run with a cordless drill for the EJ..... 

And as far as piggyback controllers - all those do is attempt to "trick" the ECU into giving more fuel or changing timing, etc - which is never a good idea since you are meddling with a closed source system for which you can never be sure of the unintended consequences. 

And "fine tuning" an EA82T is an exercise in blowing them up. They were unreliable heaps of trash as they came stock (besides being under-powered) and you'll fail at accomplishing anything worth the expenditure on the equipment to do so - just as hundreds of people who have come before you have failed. They are a GIANT waste of effort. 

But if you insist at least get something you can use on an EJ when your stubbornness gives way to reality and you finally hear my words of wisdom and experience. 

GD

[idosubaru]

Good question. Excellent answer!

This is better than watching TV! (Not that I do that so what do I know?).

 

[Ionstorm66]

For the same as a standalone ECU you could get a EJ22 donor car and the adapter, and the EJ22 will make more power stock than a EA82T will ever make. Plus the EJ22 will do 300K+ miles too boot.

[GeneralDisorder]

On 8/17/2021 at 9:20 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

For the same as a standalone ECU you could get a EJ22 donor car and the adapter, and the EJ22 will make more power stock than a EA82T will ever make. Plus the EJ22 will do 300K+ miles too boot.

You can run the EJ22 with the standalone and I have MANY arguments in favor of doing just that. We do it all the time - in fact we do it EVERY time we do a swap. #1 reason - get rid of the stupid (and expensive) MAF sensor. Makes plumbing a lot easier. And no codes for junk the stock ECU can't have in it's new chassis. 

GD

[Ionstorm66]

7 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

You can run the EJ22 with the standalone and I have MANY arguments in favor of doing just that. We do it all the time - in fact we do it EVERY time we do a swap. #1 reason - get rid of the stupid (and expensive) MAF sensor. Makes plumbing a lot easier. And no codes for junk the stock ECU can't have in it's new chassis. 

GD

Yeah standalone is best for a swap. But a stock ecu ej22 will beat any ecu with a ea82t

[SiriusBlack]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:51 AM, GeneralDisorder said:

My first hand experience (besides owning an in-ground AWD DynoJet and a Subaru tuning shop where I employ one of the most experienced Subaru tuners in the business - seriously he has the 3rd COBB Pro-Tuner license ever issued back in 2003) is personally building a megasquirt from a bare circuit board and having nothing but problems with that garbage. You want mine? It's collecting dust in a box along with a completely custom crank and cam trigger simulator you can run with a cordless drill for the EJ..... 

And as far as piggyback controllers - all those do is attempt to "trick" the ECU into giving more fuel or changing timing, etc - which is never a good idea since you are meddling with a closed source system for which you can never be sure of the unintended consequences. 

And "fine tuning" an EA82T is an exercise in blowing them up. They were unreliable heaps of trash as they came stock (besides being under-powered) and you'll fail at accomplishing anything worth the expenditure on the equipment to do so - just as hundreds of people who have come before you have failed. They are a GIANT waste of effort. 

But if you insist at least get something you can use on an EJ when your stubbornness gives way to reality and you finally hear my words of wisdom and experience. 

GD

So what I'm hearing GD, is that while you know how to tune, you have never actually tuned an EA82T. That is what I asked, what your experience was in tuning SPECIFICALLY the EA82T. As for the piggyback tuners being junk that trick the system into enrichening the fuel ratio, your right there. Most piggyback tuners do, but as I already stated originally the Power Commander doesn't look like it goes that route. It has programmable fuel maps and a couple other programmable features. They're typically meant for motor bikes, but what I want to know is if the can be adapted to alter the stock EA82T ECU?

Can anyone answer that question?

Thanks in advance.

[idosubaru]

22 hours ago, SiriusBlack said:

Can anyone answer that question?

No

[GeneralDisorder]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:16 PM, SiriusBlack said:

So what I'm hearing GD, is that while you know how to tune, you have never actually tuned an EA82T. That is what I asked, what your experience was in tuning SPECIFICALLY the EA82T. As for the piggyback tuners being junk that trick the system into enrichening the fuel ratio, your right there. Most piggyback tuners do, but as I already stated originally the Power Commander doesn't look like it goes that route. It has programmable fuel maps and a couple other programmable features. They're typically meant for motor bikes, but what I want to know is if the can be adapted to alter the stock EA82T ECU?

Can anyone answer that question?

Thanks in advance.

Clearly you have never tuned anything at all and don't understand. 

I have assisted a customer in adapting a LINK to his EA82T. Which he did successfully. So I know 100% for a fact it will work and can be easily done. He got it running and (of course) promptly blew the HG's on it..... because it's HOT GARBAGE as I have mentioned on about 1000 occasions already. 

I don't have to have dyno tuned an EA82T to know exactly how to do it. It's a 4 cycle piston engine with port injection and a turbo - just like all the others. You could tune an SR20DET and it would be EXACTLY THE SAME process. The number one rule of tuning (tied for first place with buying injectors for which there is published data) is you GIVE THE ENGINE WHAT IT WANTS. And you will NOT be able to do this with a piggyback and the seat of your pants. You need a full stand alone at a dyno that can test HP, torque, monitor AFR, and you need det cans to listen for detonation.... and you need to MOST LIKELY turn the engine DOWN from where it was stock because it's OLD AS F and wasn't particularly reliable in stock form. Knowing where to STOP when tuning engines like the EA82T or a Mazda rotary is the difference of experience and trust me NO ONE you will be able to talk to here or elsewhere is stupid enough to have spent years tuning the EA82T to approach and exceed it's limitations so they can get a good "feel" for where to stop. Just like a rotary - you detonate it ONCE and you blow the apex seals. You get even a little stupid with the EA82T and you'll crack a head and/or blow out the HG's. 

The difference is that if you turn up the already sh1tty EA82T you'll just blow holes in it. That's the difference. And I don't need to have "tuned" one to know this. Ask anyone here.....

In any case - what *exactly* are you hoping to gain with "finer control"? And what do you actually mean by "finer control"? Do you even know how fine of control the factory ECU has? What do you suppose you could do *better* than the hundreds of engineers that couldn't make this engine a winner working for Subaru being paid to design it? 

GD

Edited August 23, 2021 by GeneralDisorder

[SiriusBlack]

Just what I said, finer control. I want more control over the fuel and ignition systems, so I have the capability to tweak it to where I want it.

Im not looking to build a 300 hp track killer engine. I want to up the 115 it had at factory to a RELIABLE 150 to 200 range.

As for the "what do it think I can do better than the engineers that built it". I'm not a certified subi tech, but the simple fact is that this engine is over 30 years old. I have access to newer and more advanced technology and techniques than they did 30 years ago. Why shouldn't I be able to get everything a little finer tuned, more efficient, more powerful and more reliable?

I'd also like flexibility. We have a Ford 7.3 diesel. Majorly different engine, I know don't get all bent out of shape. My point is here, that engine has had a custom tuner installed and can switch between tunes on the fly. Allowing you to adjust the engine on the fly for different circumstances, simply by switching between the saved tunes.

I'd like to have a "stock" tune, where it runs exactly as if it were on the stock ECU.

Then an "economy tune" that leans everything out a little bit and throttles everything down for better milage.

Then last but not least, a "power/performance tune". Where it opens everything up to the max, giving me the power when I want it without sacrificing everything in the other areas.

Edited August 23, 2021 by SiriusBlack

[GeneralDisorder]

As I figured - you have no clue at all what you are doing. 

The EA82T..... WILL NOT HANDLE MORE POWER. You got that? There is NO WAY to make it "reliable" at 150 HP. 

You see - to make 150 HP  - you need the engine to move more air - an engine is effectively an air pump. So to move more air at the same RPM you will need higher boost pressure and that equates to HIGHER CYLINDER PRESSURE. The EA82T can't handle the required cylinder pressure for that power. And no amount of "technology" and "techniques" (you are really starting to sound like Elan Musk here with the vague references to sh1t that doesn't exist) will change the fundamental poor design of the cylinder head casting, the weak cylinder walls of the open-deck block, and the sh!tty thick composite gasket and head bolt setup.

And to even consider increasing the power you will need larger injectors, fuel pump an intercooler system, full exhaust, and a larger turbo that doesn't blow red hot lava at more than 10 psi. Something like a TD04 at the very least. And most probably methanol injection. To control all this you WILL NEED a full stand alone. The Power Commander coupled with a 30 year old stock ECU is a terrible idea - you are going to save a few hundred bucks to use dangerously old electronics that can fail at any time and may potentially wipe out all your invested time and effort (although it's entirely wasted on that engine anyway so I guess.... WTH). 

As for "economy" tuning - this is highly dangerous territory. Leaning the engine out above stoich will result in HUGE increases in NOx emissions - fuxking the environment even harder than you already are. Not to mention you get into the realm of burning holes in pistons and burning exhaust valves, detonation if you don't come out of lean cruise at just the right moment before you start building load.... again you don't want to attempt hyper-miling with a piggy back. You don't want to attempt it with anything that isn't capable of true wideband closed loop AFR targeting. The EA82T hasn't got a wideband O2 so the stock ECU is only capable of targeting 14.7 AFR and that isn't going to change with a piggy-back controller. The LAST thing you want to mess with on a stock ECU is the closed loop narrow band O2 targeting system. It's extremely complex and manipulating it is likely to result in engine damage. Not to mention - don't do this as it's extremely bad for the environment and why the US government outlawed lean cruise systems.

GD

 

[SiriusBlack]

I have decided that a stand alone is probably better. I already planned on an intercooler system and cooler more efficient turbo, in addition to the dual core radiator I installed "have to keep it cool". Still working on the pressure issues. I think you're underestimating the durability of the cylinder walls. The main issue is the head gaskets, that's where my problem currently lies. No one makes MLS head gaskets for this engine. If I can get MLS head gaskets, I think it will handle more pressure. Once again I'm not looking to cram ENORMOUS amounts of air into it, because I'm not wanting HUGE hp increases over factory. Are you honestly saying, that even a slight increase in air pressure for more power will blow it up? Even if you think so, there are ways of reinforcing it without too much work.

That's like you said the EE20 diesel is garbage because the crank seat cracks, I believe the issue was with those? Wouldn't you fix that problem with an engine crank girdle?

As for the referencing things that don't exist, you do realize that people make things exist, right? You don't dig in the ground and find a deposit of EJ engines. They didn't always exist, someone created them.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by SiriusBlack

[GeneralDisorder]

11 hours ago, SiriusBlack said:

 Are you honestly saying, that even a slight increase in air pressure for more power will blow it up? Even if you think so, there are ways of reinforcing it without too much work.

That's like you said the EE20 diesel is garbage because the crank seat cracks, I believe the issue was with those? Wouldn't you fix that problem with an engine crank girdle?

They blow up in STOCK form. And it's OLD. It will blow up if you so much as look at it cross-eyed. Let alone dump extra boost at it. The engine is JUNK. HOT GARBAGE and needs to be melted down into soda cans. It's not worth even 5 minutes of your time, let alone weeks or more likely months and years that you might spend on all this foolishness. MANY people on this forum came and went DECADES ago and tried all this and a whole lot more. After blowing up dozens of engines EVERY ONE OF THEM threw in the towel. It's a WASTE OF TIME and will still be a WASTE OF TIME regardless of how much you WISH it to be otherwise. 

No one is going to make you an MLS gasket. Why would they do this? There's ZERO market and therefore ZERO profit in it. People have tried copper - but that's race car stuff and not designed to last. They leak fluids like crazy and copper work hardens making it a short lived racing only kind of gasket. You could o-ring the block and head, but without custom tooling to do so and without gaskets designed with fire rings large enough for this to work it's unlikely to be successful. Generally this results in squirting the fire ring out from under the o-ring due to how thick and squishy the gasket is. Reducing the gasket thickness without a corresponding increase in chamber volume or piston dish will only drive up compression and make it more difficult to run boost without detonation. Removing any material from the heads is foolish - they are already weak. That leaves a piston dish volume increase so custom pistons...... NONE of this work is worth doing and is a fools errand. 

How are you going to girdle a split block Subaru engine? The block halves are their own girdle you goofball. This statement alone makes it obvious you have never, and will never do any of these things and if you do will certainly fail with misery. 

GD

Edited August 24, 2021 by GeneralDisorder

[Numbchux]

Take some advice, man. In the 30 years that these EA82s have existed, you're not the first one to want 30-75% more power out of it. Do you know how many times we've seen people on here spending huge amounts of time and money on EA82ts, trying to do it right? Do you know how many of those got replaced with an EJ?

I just spent a minute with a boost pressure calculator. If 5psi nets 115hp, 200hp would require ~22 psi!

 

 

Yes, everything is fixable. With the proper application of time, money and knowledge, anything is theoretically possible. We're telling you that better results are attainable with far less of all 3 by swapping to an EJ. I don't think anyone has used a Power Commander, but similar builds have been done DOZENS of times, I can't think of anyone that's had much success. There were a couple in Australia ~20 years ago that spent huge money on the engine hard parts to get power out of them, but I don't recall even those being terribly successful.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 10:16 PM, SiriusBlack said:

Most piggyback tuners do, but as I already stated originally the Power Commander doesn't look like it goes that route. It has programmable fuel maps and a couple other programmable features.

And, how do you think it executes those features? By manipulating sensor signals to fool the ECU into doing something it wasn't supposed to do? Yea...almost certainly.

[moosens]

Thanks for the education and entertainment folks. 
 

Hey , just an old dinosaur here , what I said was basically - find the parts to keep it healthy and allow it to live out it’s life without detrimental consequences. The stuff I mentioned is simple and can likely still be found. Yes I owned at least a couple that I daily drove for a short period. I did enjoy my 88? Turbo Wagon with the fivespeed single range.  It was fun but just a few pages in my book. 
 

Challenging ourselves with projects can be great. But as mentioned the effort and cost needs to be weighed out. 
 

Dinosaur says ride it out stock. It won’t be around too much longer. Just ask the many of us previous owners. 
 

Good luck. I feel you’re going to stick with your plan somewhat and get that latest tech adapted. If any success please boast and enjoy the moment. 
Cheers ! 

 

[SiriusBlack]

@moosens You feel right, I'll keep what everyone is saying in mind, but I will stick to my plan for the most part. I'm stubborn and like a challenge, I was just looking for a little help.

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, SiriusBlack said:

I have decided that a stand alone is probably better. I already planned on an intercooler system and cooler more efficient turbo, in addition to the dual core radiator I installed "have to keep it cool". Still working on the pressure issues. I think you're underestimating the durability of the cylinder walls. The main issue is the head gaskets, that's where my problem currently lies. No one makes MLS head gaskets for this engine. If I can get MLS head gaskets, I think it will handle more pressure. Once again I'm not looking to cram ENORMOUS amounts of air into it, because I'm not wanting HUGE hp increases over factory. Are you honestly saying, that even a slight increase in air pressure for more power will blow it up? Even if you think so, there are ways of reinforcing it without too much work.

That's like you said the EE20 diesel is garbage because the crank seat cracks, I believe the issue was with those? Wouldn't you fix that problem with an engine crank girdle?

As for the referencing things that don't exist, you do realize that people make things exist, right? You don't dig in the ground and find a deposit of EJ engines. They didn't always exist, someone created them.

 

Good job keeping a level conversation! That can be hard to hear for the DIY type wanting a low cost hands on project.  most of us have wasted extraordinary time and space on an old gen Subaru project, so we shouldn't necessarily talk you out of those experiences. You'll definitely learn a lot trying and, in spite of the low view of EA82T's it can prepare you for what's to come.

That being said. Better clamping, studs, compression refinement, shaving, adjustable timing, reworked cams, porting, valve springs, copper, oring, larger injectors, megasquirt, have all been attempted.  Those projects have consistently amounted to nothing, almost zero accounts of running and driving EA82T's, not to mention "reliable" ones, and many blown engines and unfinnifhsed hopes or projects.  Which, after 30 years, is a lot of wasted time and money collectively.  Those that have tried those higher end projects have been for the most part unsuccessful, temporarily successful, never got to where they wanted, and moved on, aren't here, or have passed away, so first hand experience it limited.

Good luck and enjoy. 

[GeneralDisorder]

4 hours ago, SiriusBlack said:

@moosens You feel right, I'll keep what everyone is saying in mind, but I will stick to my plan for the most part. I'm stubborn and like a challenge, I was just looking for a little help.

We ARE helping you. We CANT help you do something that is essentially an impossible waste of time...... I need help too. I need help building an anti-gravity drive. I have some ideas - would you like to see them? 

Perhaps someday you'll understand how incredibly lucky you were that I gave your post the gift of my responses. Ponder it for a bit. Look up my shop and what we do. 

GD