A couple of quick '06 OBW questions

[jonathan909]

I'm helping out a friend with this one - HGs, as usual, so they're engine questions.

First, this is an EJ253, right?

Second, as I shop (Rock) for the gaskets, I see a lot of chatter about head bolts.  Understanding that the older EJ25s I've been working on to date don't use torque-to-yield bolts and that bolt re-use is normal, is that still the case with this engine?  That is, is the "new bolts required" bit bu11sh!t?

Third, it's a US (rather than Canada) production car, so how do I tell if it's California?  Asking because I gather that in that case there's an extra plenum/gasket (or something) to consider.

Edited October 1, 2021 by jonathan909

[idosubaru]

2 hours ago, jonathan909 said:

I'm helping out a friend with this one - HGs, as usual, so they're engine questions.

First, this is an EJ253, right?

Second, as I shop (Rock) for the gaskets, I see a lot of chatter about head bolts.  Understanding that the older EJ25s I've been working on to date don't use torque-to-yield bolts and that bolt re-use is normal, is that still the case with this engine?  That is, is the "new bolts required" bit bu11sh!t?

Third, it's a US (rather than Canada) production car, so how do I tell if it's California?  Asking because I gather that in that case there's an extra plenum/gasket (or something) to consider.

There were H6's in 2006.  If the timing cover bolts (100 of them - 60 external and 40 innternal) are rusty they can be hellacious to remove.  

Reuse the headbolts unless they're rusty or beat to ()!%*.   Aftermarket has very low chance of being similar materials and workmanship from the smelting furnace and manufacturing plant.

Subaru OEM head gaskets only.  
A reasonable number of reputable folks install Fel Pro and I've used them on older Subaru's rarely, so I'd consider them if someone begged me to.  but I wouldn't use any other brand without verifying the manufacturer of origin  (not counting the rare times I've needed special thickness gaskets from those custom thickness gasket suppliers like cometic or whoever it was). 

Resurface the heads every time.  "Checking for flatness" is an archaic waste of time

[idosubaru]

i don't know about the CA stuff.  

[jonathan909]

Well, I have been doing this long enough to not ask which 4 it is if there's a 6 under the hood.

I've also been doing just fine with aftermarket gaskets (MLM all, of course), so will probably go with Mahle this time around.

And I don't have a problem with the "old school" flatness check, either.  I've got a machinist's rule and good feeler gauges.

But I'd still like an answer to the CA question, if anyone can help.

[idosubaru]

You didn’t ask which 4 it is. You asked if it’s a 253. You never said you saw the car.  For all I know a friend texted and you’ve never seen the car and have never worked on an H6.  Ive had friends multiple times not know if their car is a 4 or 6 cylinder.

[jonathan909]

Fair enough.  But now I've made clear that it's a 4 and still haven't gotten an answer to the question.

Edited October 2, 2021 by jonathan909

[GeneralDisorder]

Reuse head bolts. 

Get the 770 gaskets from Subaru. Don't buy cheap junk gaskets. Not worth your time. 

Hood sticker will state CA compliance. 

GD

Edited October 3, 2021 by GeneralDisorder

[jonathan909]

Can you explain the "770" designation to me?

And you don't like the Mahle or Reinz gaskets?  Is this just on "OEM principle", or have you seen high(er) failure rates with them?  They're the more/most expensive of aftermarket, so hardly at the bottom-garbage-end.

On the CA thing:  The sticker says it's CA-compliant, but what I want to know is whether that affects the BOM for doing the head gasket job.

Edited October 3, 2021 by jonathan909

[Numbchux]

Aftermarket Subaru head gaskets = higher failure rate. Absolutely. You can use aftermarket if you like on the rest of the gaskets.

 

 770 is the end of the Subaru part number for the STi application. This is an MLS gasket that will give the best results. If you don't want to do it again, use these.

 

Should be EJ253, tag on the LH strut tower will tell you. Subaru head bolts can absolutely be reused if they're not damaged/corroded, in which case, replace them individually with OEM.

[idosubaru]

23 hours ago, jonathan909 said:

Can you explain the "770" designation to me?

And you don't like the Mahle or Reinz gaskets?  Is this just on "OEM principle", or have you seen high(er) failure rates with them?  They're the more/most expensive of aftermarket, so hardly at the bottom-garbage-end.

On the CA thing:  The sticker says it's CA-compliant, but what I want to know is whether that affects the BOM for doing the head gasket job.

Yes higher fail rate.  I only do Subaru's and sometimes these types of things impact a small (particularly small 10-20 years ago) company like Subaru more than big players like Toy, GM, etc. 

Sometimes you don't get the same part when ordering two of the same part number from the same auto parts company.  I've seen Subaru headgaskets with the same part number, from the same company - be manufactured by different companies.  GD has described before that companies fill their catalogs with other manufacturers so they have an exhaustive coverage, and this supply chain can change.  I assume his explanation is why I've seen it before, but I don't know.   I may be mis-remembering but I'm almost positive I've bought two Subaru head gaskets at the same time/same part number/from same company and they were notably different suppliers.  If not the same order it was less than a year apart.  That moving target isn't worth trying to keep tabs on. 

Which makes feedback from others difficult.   I don't care what 2 rando's did a time or two, particularly on a headgasket.  

But you drive down the rockies sans hitchpin (joking, it was an unknown, not on purpose). Your chances are decent at getting by with a decent brand gasket.  A number of folks have had Fel Pro's play nice on EJ25's even a couple folks doing a signficant number of them. The Ebay specials are notorious for lasting less than a year, although I have seen reasonable brands send some wonky gaskets that I didn't use a couple times. 

 

 

[jonathan909]

I understand the failures with truly crap gaskets - I used, as a conscious experiment, the non-MLM pair that came with an Enginetech (full) rebuild kit, and sure enough they failed right at the one-year mark.  But I've had no problems to date with Mahle MLMs.  Not arguing for them, just reporting my results.

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, jonathan909 said:

I understand the failures with truly crap gaskets - I used, as a conscious experiment, the non-MLM pair that came with an Enginetech (full) rebuild kit, and sure enough they failed right at the one-year mark.  But I've had no problems to date with Mahle MLMs.  Not arguing for them, just reporting my results.

Totally expected that better parts suppliers, like Mahle, would source from the better manufacturers - some occasionally have OEM in their packaging. I've seen that before as well. 

[jonathan909]

You're actually revealing an important distinction that I don't think anyone else has made to date:  That the name on the package is not necessarily the manufacturer of the contents.  Though it may be obvious to many, it never occurred to me.  This opens an entirely different can of worms.

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, jonathan909 said:

You're actually revealing an important distinction that I don't think anyone else has made to date:  That the name on the package is not necessarily the manufacturer of the contents.  Though it may be obvious to many, it never occurred to me.  This opens an entirely different can of worms.

Exactly.  Buying from Subaru favors some people and situations, and chasing the aftermarket moving target is worth the effort sometimes too.

I tried last month for an OEM Subaru wheel bearing from a supplier I've purchased from before and gotten OEM...and it wasn't OEM.  You win some, you loose some.

A parts seller can change who supplies a gasket for a given vehicle.  Subaru, Mahle, or any company, doesn't necessarily make all their own headgaskets.  They might make none of their own gaskets and fill their catalog with various suppliers. Or they may make some gaskets and contract with other companies to supply the rest, so they have a full catalog to show prospective large scale partners.

Part manufacturers can also make changes that impact the products, such as move a manufacturing plant from Country A to Country B for example.   Not surprisingly, this usually reduces quality. I assume because companies make international moves for financial reasons not product quality reasons.

The part could be supplied by a different manufacturer over time, or the same manufacturer can supply the part but incur changes along the way like the international example.  Knowing all that, you can still dig into aftermarket and sometimes end up with OEM parts, or good substitutes, with some effort. 

As Subaru grows and it's platforms like the EJ have longevity - I imagine parts sourcing and available quality should improve. In the 2000's and earlier I remember buying seals that physically were too big to install or they'd leak, and getting 4 cylinder parts when I ordered 6 cylinder part numbers. Those days are gone and I imagine other parts snafu's fade over time as well, as Subaru grows. 

[Numbchux]

2 hours ago, jonathan909 said:

You're actually revealing an important distinction that I don't think anyone else has made to date:  That the name on the package is not necessarily the manufacturer of the contents.  Though it may be obvious to many, it never occurred to me.  This opens an entirely different can of worms.

 

Yep, in fact, the name on the package is almost never the manufacturer of the contents, especially when it comes to brick and mortar parts stores. IMHO, there's only one thing that definitively separates the various aftermarket parts, and that is the warranty, which is handled from the retailer (getting a warranty replacement from RockAuto involves paying round-trip shipping, for example).

Something else we see, is an OE supplier (Denso, Mitsuboshi, Johnson Controls, etc.) will likely have different quality control requirements when they supply for an OEM then when they sell through another retailer. So even seeing a brand name stamped on a part doesn't mean the same quality part.

[jonathan909]

Then it begs the question:  Which aftermarket brands have QC standards that are as high as OEM?

[Numbchux]

Only way to get 100% OEM, is buy OEM.

You can buy a part directly from an OEM supplier, but it's not guaranteed to be the same quality as an OEM part.

[jonathan909]

Sure, that's the absolute-theoretical-always-right answer.  But down here on the street people accumulate experience and can report which brands they have or have not (ever) had problems with.