1993 Loyale 3AT - What do I need to know

[tylertrend]

Looking at picking up a really mint '93 Loyale sedan 4wd that has a verified 33k miles. Super clean inside and out. This would be my first foray into the EA82 platform and have a few questions maybe the pros could answer.

1) Even with the low mileage, the timing belts are almost 30 years old and have never been changed. How much should they be trusted?

2) 3AT - I'm told it works fine (will verify) but again age vs mileage, should a basic fluid and filter service keep it healthy for years to come? Can't imagine governor gears or oil pump issues, etc popping up at just 33k miles.

3) Anything special to know about the SPFI or OBD system?

4) Any other quirks of this chassis/drivetrain I should be aware of?  I know EA82 engines can develop issues with lifters and head cracks but that's about the extent of my knowledge on them. I know the 3ATs run high RPMs but my commute is strictly back roads up to about 45mph so that's not a deterrent to me.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[idosubaru]

Hey boss - I'm just an hour south of you I guess. 

1. Zero trust.  If it's too be driven they will break. Think about old dried up plastic and rubber you've seen cracked and hardened - that's what they are like materially even if aesthetically you'd give them a thumbs up.  Fortunately those timing belts are super easy to do.  Replace the bolt belts, idlers, tensioners - there are kits available with all that.  Buy a crank seal, oil pump seal and gasket and oring and cam seals and cam cap orings from Subaru.  I actually probably have all the oil pump/seal stuff I can ship you at cost. 

2. Change fluids.  Yes they have one or two known weak spots that can be remedied so I've been told from other old school Subaru people.  I've never had to touch one so I'm not persoanlly familiar but new fluid for sure. 

3. No.  It's old school tech and it'll flash you the codes by reading a flashing LED, no scanner or annything needed.  SPFI is simple and robust with few issues. 

4a)  They have front emergency brakes for which the piston screws in with a special $5 tool all auto parts stores have (or use pliers).  Don't just press the piston in like a normal brake pad, it won't go. 

4b)  Go easy on the cam cap 10mm bolts they easily strip (though the holes are deep so just install a longer bolt if they do)

4c)  the timing belts (there are two) are opposite of every other modern vehicle timing belt.  the two cam timing marks are supposed to be lined up 180 degrees off - not both lined up like modern belts.  With drivers side cam lined to it's mark and the crank mark lined up, install the drivers side belt.  Now rotate the crank 360 degrees and the drivers side cam will be pointing down at 6oclock.  Now line up the passengers side belt and install it with it's cam marks lined up.  

***Alternately those of us that have done a ton of them just install the drivers side belt with cam mark at 12 olock lined up and just put the passengers side cam mark at 6 clock and install them at the same time.  They just need to be 180 degrees off from each other. 

4d)  It should surely have the original axles.  If you're not familiar with this topic - be prepared to ignore 95% of what you hear about Subaru axles.  keep those original axles.  Plan on cleaning/regreasing/rebooting them if the boots ever break no matter what.  Replacement axles are garbage no matter what some "really smart" car person tells you.  Ignore them.  I don't care if 6 people who loves Subaru's recommend some axle - they're wrong.  OEM original axles are gold and worth keeping.  I have dozens of stories about how trashy they are - including a friend last week that ignored me, got an aftermarket axle, and was stranded on his 120 mile commute due to mad vibrations.  Wash rinse repeat - I've had that happen countless times.  I can't exaggerate how bad they are - I seen two brand new aftermarket axles blow up right out of the box - one made it 10 feet and the other blew after 100 miles....  And on and on...i've got lots of pathetic stories about aftermarket axles.  I don't know the numbers but let's say They''ve got a 60% chance of hosing you - it's not worth it. it's a waste of time and they can fail catastrophically when OEM will never fail catastrophically.  There's no reason to use aftermarket except laziness.  I've even regreased and rebooted noisy OEM axles and they're perfectly fine - some are running on members vehicles on this forum after many years still.   I'd never trust an aftermarket axle in that situation.

 

 

[tylertrend]

8 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

Hey boss - I'm just an hour south of you I guess. 

1. Zero trust.  If it's too be driven they will break. Think about old dried up plastic and rubber you've seen cracked and hardened - that's what they are like materially even if aesthetically you'd give them a thumbs up.  Fortunately those timing belts are super easy to do.  Replace the bolt belts, idlers, tensioners - there are kits available with all that.  Buy a crank seal, oil pump seal and gasket and oring and cam seals and cam cap orings from Subaru.  I actually probably have all the oil pump/seal stuff I can ship you at cost. 

2. Change fluids.  Yes they have one or two known weak spots that can be remedied so I've been told from other old school Subaru people.  I've never had to touch one so I'm not personally familiar but new fluid for sure. 

3. No.  It's old school tech and it'll flash you the codes by reading a flashing LED, no scanner or anything needed.  SPFI is simple and robust with few issues. 

4a)  They have front emergency brakes for which the piston screws in with a special $5 tool all auto parts stores have (or use pliers).  Don't just press the piston in like a normal brake pad, it won't go. 

4b)  Go easy on the cam cap 10mm bolts they easily strip (though the holes are deep so just install a longer bolt if they do)

4c)  the timing belts (there are two) are opposite of every other modern vehicle timing belt.  the two cam timing marks are supposed to be lined up 180 degrees off - not both lined up like modern belts.  With drivers side cam lined to it's mark and the crank mark lined up, install the drivers side belt.  Now rotate the crank 360 degrees and the drivers side cam will be pointing down at 6oclock.  Now line up the passengers side belt and install it with it's cam marks lined up.  

***Alternately those of us that have done a ton of them just install the drivers side belt with cam mark at 12 olock lined up and just put the passengers side cam mark at 6 clock and install them at the same time.  They just need to be 180 degrees off from each other. 

4d)  It should surely have the original axles.  If you're not familiar with this topic - be prepared to ignore 95% of what you hear about Subaru axles.  keep those original axles.  Plan on cleaning/regreasing/rebooting them if the boots ever break no matter what.  Replacement axles are garbage no matter what some "really smart" car person tells you.  Ignore them.  I don't care if 6 people who loves Subaru's recommend some axle - they're wrong.  OEM original axles are gold and worth keeping.  I have dozens of stories about how trashy they are - including a friend last week that ignored me, got an aftermarket axle, and was stranded on his 120 mile commute due to mad vibrations.  Wash rinse repeat - I've had that happen countless times.  I can't exaggerate how bad they are - I seen two brand new aftermarket axles blow up right out of the box - one made it 10 feet and the other blew after 100 miles....  And on and on...i've got lots of pathetic stories about aftermarket axles.  I don't know the numbers but let's say They''ve got a 60% chance of hosing you - it's not worth it. it's a waste of time and they can fail catastrophically when OEM will never fail catastrophically.  There's no reason to use aftermarket except laziness.  I've even regreased and rebooted noisy OEM axles and they're perfectly fine - some are running on members vehicles on this forum after many years still.   I'd never trust an aftermarket axle in that situation.

 

 

Thanks for the write-up. I had aftermarket axles on a fwd ea81 car and it was obvious they were sub par. If I end up with the vehicle I'll keep those seal kits you have in mind.

[el_freddo]

Ido converted all the important bits for the EA82. Some other points to note: 

- the coolant temp sensor (CTS) can cause loads of running issues if it goes out of whack, it won’t necessarily throw a code. 

- O2 sensors can also go offline/out of whack but not throw a code either. Generally an increase in fuel usages is the symptom of this issue. 

The auto: 

- most common problem is that governor issue you’ve already mentioned, followed by the seal between the auto and the front diff dying, it leaks ATF into the diff and vice versa, pinion bearing fails followed by pinion trying to drive itself through the centre of the rotating diff housing. Car stops nasty quick when this happens. Auto is a write off at that point. 

Spare parts for the auto will be harder to find than the manual box. It could be worth pulling the auto down to swap out the seal that’s the issue. Also a good time to reboot those CV joints with a quality item instead of waiting for the original CV boots to destroy themselves. 

It would be advisable to replace every coolant hose and possibly the radiator at this age. Don’t miss the little coolant hose under the intake manifold on top of the block, it’s a real bastard to get to! 

This could be a good vehicle to commute in but you might need to do some preventative maintenance before attempting this or run the risk of needing more work and parts shortly after getting it on the road. 

The EA82 is a. Engine that likes to spin fast, it’s no torque monster by any means and will happily rev at 3500-4000rpm all day with quality oil and coolant doing its thing. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[DaveT]

Replace all 7 cooling system hoses.

+1 on the OEM axels.  +1 on the CTS.

+1 What everyone else wrote.

More things to be aware of with these-

The shaft that drives the main oil pump in the 3AT should be good for close to 200K miles.  IF you get close to that, replace that shaft before it fails.  If you want one of those shafts, start looking now.

I've run Amsoil synthetic ATF in the 3ATs since 1988, and have had very few problems with them.
Check that front diff gear lube at least 4 times a year.  Running the diff dry causes a lot of problems before the noise gets loud enough to alert you.  Mine turn 4000RPM at 65MPH on the highway, not a problem.

#1 thing to maintain is the cooling system.  Radiator condition, not corroded, not blocked, etc.   These engines do not like to run with air in the cooling system.  Well, they run, but when the temp goes over normal due to air, the head gaskets get damaged or outright fail.

The alternator will wear out a brush around 150K miles, like clockwork.  And you can only tell if you happen to be idling in the dark with everything off, and notice the alt and a few other red dash lights dimly glowing. 
 

If it develops the click - no crank problem, adding a relay in the starter solenoid circuit is the fix.

Start collecting parts, as many are NLA.  Others are order and wait.
 

 

[newmexguy]

I have some new timing belts and engine gaskets.  Fel - Pro & Gates, I believe.  Stored inside, away from the weather.  EA-82 engine.  PM if interested.   

Dave S  southern new mexico 

[Ionstorm66]

Couple things to add. 

 

There are fusible links in the small black box next to the battery. These cna cause random electrical issues if the connections get dirty/loose. They are just thin bits of wire with spade connectors. You can replace them with modern sealed versions.

 

Second electrical issue is the ground. Make sure the main ground from the battery to the starter is clean and tight. Next there is a main ground for the chassis on the intake, same thing clean and tight.

 

Clean the idle air control valve and replace the PVC valve. PVC valve gets dirty/leaky and sucks oil into the intake. This will cause the IAC to stick and give you idle issues. A sticky IAC combined with a iffy coolant temp sensor is a hell of a thing to diagnose.

 

Also plus one for rebooting stock axles. I've bought stock axles at junk yards with bad boots and bone dry rusty cvs. Clean them up and reboot/grease and they last thousands of miles.

[Step-a-toe]

just buy it before someone else does first !

rust can be found poking around between windscreen and wipers, under floor around what looks like incorporated chassis rails near gearbox.

 

[tylertrend]

22 minutes ago, Step-a-toe said:

just buy it before someone else does first !

rust can be found poking around between windscreen and wipers, under floor around what looks like incorporated chassis rails near gearbox.

 

For sure! He wasn't around to show it this weekend but next week I'm gonna check it out.

[Moto7man]

I am just finishing a preventive/other rebuild on my 91. The seals on the carrier bearing assemblies will need to be replaced when they start leaking. The 3AT is a terrible transmission, high rpms at highway speed that hurts mpg, and the governor gear gets apple cored and then you have to pull the whole transmission to replace it. I just put an MT in mine. Also, the rear main seal will probably have a leak, which is more likely to happen on a 3AT. 

[tylertrend]

I appreciate all the great input on this thread. I recently found a '99 SUS in Maroon/Gold that I picked up today. It is overall a very solid car with only 50k miles that I would say is a kinship to my formerly owned '99 Maroon/Gold Outback.

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, tylertrend said:

I appreciate all the great input on this thread. I recently found a '99 SUS in Maroon/Gold that I picked up today. It is overall a very solid car with only 50k miles that I would say is a kinship to my formerly owned '99 Maroon/Gold Outback.

Excellent!  the 99 maroon SUS is about one of my favorite looking practical Subarus when in great condition. Super sharp but not too over done. Nice job, enjoy!

99s have a delayed engagement into drive issue. Add a bottle of Auto Trans-X as soon as you have that symptom. Additives like this are nearly universally a horrible option or a waste of time - but this is a rare outlier where this is an excellent long term option. 

Replace timing kit with an AISIN kit or for a bare minimum cheap job Subaru belt, lower toothed idler and check the timing tensioner seal for wetness. If it’s substantially wet replace with new Subaru.  Interference engine so if any of those fail there will be bent valves.

Very easy job. Belt can be done easily in an hour.  Leave extra time for first time or based on how you work. 

Use NGK for plugs and wires and KYB for struts.

You may know this but those are prone to headgasket failure. and the first and only symptom of factory headgaskets failing in that engine is random overheating, making them difficult to diagnose for those unfamiliar with that engine.  

[tylertrend]

21 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Excellent!  the 99 maroon SUS is about one of my favorite looking practical Subarus when in great condition. Super sharp but not too over done. Nice job, enjoy!

99s have a delayed engagement into drive issue. Add a bottle of Auto Trans-X as soon as you have that symptom. Additives like this are nearly universally a horrible option or a waste of time - but this is a rare outlier where this is an excellent long term option. 

Replace timing kit with an AISIN kit or for a bare minimum cheap job Subaru belt, lower toothed idler and check the timing tensioner seal for wetness. If it’s substantially wet replace with new Subaru.  Interference engine so if any of those fail there will be bent valves.

Very easy job. Belt can be done easily in an hour.  Leave extra time for first time or based on how you work. 

Use NGK for plugs and wires and KYB for struts.

You may know this but those are prone to headgasket failure. and the first and only symptom of factory headgaskets failing in that engine is random overheating, making them difficult to diagnose for those unfamiliar with that engine.  

Ah yes I am all too familiar with the EJ25D HG issues. Timing belt was done in the last year along with cam seals so all should be well there. My 99 Outback had a bazillion miles on it and it benefitted from trans-x. 

[idosubaru]

14 minutes ago, tylertrend said:

Ah yes I am all too familiar with the EJ25D HG issues. Timing belt was done in the last year along with cam seals so all should be well there. My 99 Outback had a bazillion miles on it and it benefitted from trans-x. 

Oh great, you’re already familiar with these then. Excellent!

Itll sound odd but I’d replace the belt with Subaru brand belt and that lower pulley, or all the pulleys even if it’s “got a new belt”.  Most shops only do the belt or use non Subaru branded parts which have higher failure rates.  I’ve bought blown EJ25 96-99 Subarus with new off brand timing belts that have broken and bent the valves. Friend is getting a Subaru and I told them today I’ll just do the timing belt for them even if it’s “already been done”.  I’ve also seen people say “it’s got a new timing belt”, and it doesn’t.  They think a new belt means a new timing belt but all they really got done was the serpentine belts. Anyway I assume have like new reliability and no bent valves for $100 and an hour of my time.