1999 Legacy Outback how much should I lift??

[faunjoustino]

Hey yall!

So I've got a 1999 Legacy Outback Limited, This was my fathers car before he passed away and I want to make it more off-road capable for camping and above average trails. At first I was wanting to go hard with a big 2.5 inch lift, however from what I've heard because I have a 2.5 automatic I'm going to be losing power and more prone to breaking things because of the larger wheels and transmission / cv being angled different from stock.

My buddy has a 2017 Jeep Wrangler and it got through this trail in Nelson Nevada no problem completely stock with 8.3 inches of ground clearance, the trail really isn't too bad but towards the end its got some pretty funky dips and rocks, that the better approach angle of the jeep makes it easier to go through.

https://www.lasvegasjeeptrails.com/jeep-trails/Lake-Mohave-Area/Fire-Mountain-Cove/

I basically want my Subaru to be capable of running the same road for camping and stuff.

I'm thinking since the stock Subaru comes with 7.3" inches of clearance already, besides the approach angles being worse because of the front and rear bumper of the outback, would a 1" lift or forester struts and stiffer springs and going from 26.3" tire diameter to 27.7" tire do the trick and get me to over 8.5" clearance?

I figure if I can at least get to where the jeep is stock ill be golden.

any advice on if I should even lift it or not is always welcome and how much should I lift? what kind of tires? what kind of struts and springs, is it worth swapping to an H6 for more power?
also when it comes to power how much do I have to worry about losing power when lifting the outback, I want to throw camping gear in here and a full size spare as well and roof rack and all that. do I have to worry about that?

I've read that the extra weight / Rotational mass affects the power quite a bit. what should I expect power wise from stock to 1 inch up to 2 inches, how much less camping gear or weight can it handle and still make it down the trail without ruining my transmission?

thanks yall anything helps!!

[1 Lucky Texan]

paging @scalman and @pontoontodd

[wtdash]

Kinda like this, huh? :-)

I put some '03-'08 Forester struts and 215/70R16 tires wheels on my '98 Foz. Different Subie, but similar setup. The Foz struts will fit your OB 'as is'.   

Gave me 9.5" of GC and doesn't mess much w/the CV angles. Tires are tight and just rubbed the mudflaps but 5 mins w/a hacksaw fixed that.   Your 27.7" is likely a 215/75R15, for the stock OB alloys, and may a better fit to start. Maybe run that combo and see b4 adding strut spacers, etc. 

 

Also, I'm not sure it's applicable to the '99, since it has the Phase 2 Transmission/electronics, but there are two mods I like for the 4EAT: Center Diff Lock and Power Shift Mod. Covered on here somewheres. 

GL, 

TD

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by wtdash

[pontoontodd]

2" lift shouldn't be too hard on your CVs and shouldn't affect power delivery or transmission life.  If you're going to drive the car 99% on the highway and occasionally take it on trails like this, just go 1.5".  If 99% trail riding I would go 2.5".

215/75/15 is the biggest tire you'll be able to fit without some crazy spacers or wheels, they shouldn't rub too much with 1.5"+ lift.  Supposedly the 08ish Forester struts have a little more clearance, pretty sure the 2000-2004 Outback front struts have more clearance, but still 215/75/15 is about as big as you can go.

As you mentioned your approach and departure angles will be much worse than a Jeep.  At a minimum remove the plastic bumper covers or the trails will eventually remove them for you.

AGX struts are a little better than standard replacement struts and aren't too expensive.  Beyond that they get expensive but ride and hold up better.  Lift springs would be worth looking into, that would be a better way to lift it than spacers as it will get you higher off the bump stops at ride height.

Having done it, I would say it's not worth swapping to an H6 for mild trail riding.  If you really want an H6 and obviously don't mind having an auto, I'd just buy an H6 Outback.  With the five speed auto would be even better.

The biggest advantage that Jeep will have over your Subaru is gearing.  I haven't seen this trail you're talking about so I don't know how steep it gets, but any long steep grade will probably be impossible in your Subaru (this is all relative, we've certainly climbed some things without low range a lot of people would consider long and steep).  I haven't driven many of the automatic cars off pavement but mine is terrible, certainly no better than a five speed manual, you still need momentum to get up short steep hills.  It does work better in 1 or 2 than D.

I wouldn't worry so much about ground clearance numbers.  Worst case you scrape the bottom a few times, or a lot of times, it's steel and it's a 22 year old car, just make sure the oil pan and gas tank have good protection.

[heartless]

5 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

Having done it, I would say it's not worth swapping to an H6 for mild trail riding.  If you really want an H6 and obviously don't mind having an auto, I'd just buy an H6 Outback.  With the five speed auto would be even better.

actually, no, the 5spd auto is not better.. they are the weak link here.. the 4EAT would be the better tranny for durability.

the only place the 5spd beats the 4 spd is on the hiway - lower rpms at speed, better fuel mileage... but that is the only advantage

[idosubaru]

2" lift

Make sure the inner axle cups are green (OEM), if not, install used OEM green inner cup axles. 

Auto transfer clutch modification.  It's a one wire job - cut wire, install switch, done. 

Change your transmission fluid since it's of unknown age and you're going to be working it out. 

2" lift is the standard maximum subaru lift.  Any more starts flirting with axle angle issues. 

The oil pan sits low and exposed - careful. 

[pontoontodd]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:46 PM, heartless said:

actually, no, the 5spd auto is not better.. they are the weak link here.. the 4EAT would be the better tranny for durability.

the only place the 5spd beats the 4 spd is on the hiway - lower rpms at speed, better fuel mileage... but that is the only advantage

Interesting.  I was thinking more for the lower/closer ratios than durability but again I know almost nothing about the automatics.  The 4EAT is bad enough, I can't imagine something worse.

[pontoontodd]

On 10/21/2021 at 5:53 PM, idosubaru said:

2" lift

Make sure the inner axle cups are green (OEM), if not, install used OEM green inner cup axles. 

Auto transfer clutch modification.  It's a one wire job - cut wire, install switch, done. 

Change your transmission fluid since it's of unknown age and you're going to be working it out. 

2" lift is the standard maximum subaru lift.  Any more starts flirting with axle angle issues. 

The oil pan sits low and exposed - careful. 

I agree with all of that except the auto trans fluid change.  I've heard many horror stories about people changing auto trans fluid in cars and trucks that haven't had it changed in tens of thousands of miles and the transmission dies shortly thereafter.  Have even heard this from people who rebuild them for a living.  Hypothesis being it breaks loose all the varnish and sludge and clogs things up.  Just my 2c on that.

[heartless]

5 hours ago, pontoontodd said:

Interesting.  I was thinking more for the lower/closer ratios than durability but again I know almost nothing about the automatics.  The 4EAT is bad enough, I can't imagine something worse.

the EJ series 4EAT is a very robust transmission... the old EA series were eh.. lol, but yeah, totally different beasts

I have owned a 1990 Legacy, a 1995 Legacy and a 2002 Forester with the 4EAT - all great cars with no problems out of the trannies

ask GD about the 5spd auto, LOL

[idosubaru]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:51 PM, pontoontodd said:

I agree with all of that except the auto trans fluid change.  I've heard many horror stories about people changing auto trans fluid in cars and trucks that haven't had it changed in tens of thousands of miles and the transmission dies shortly thereafter.  Have even heard this from people who rebuild them for a living.  Hypothesis being it breaks loose all the varnish and sludge and clogs things up.  Just my 2c on that.

I understand where you’re coming from if that’s where you land. I’ve heard all that garbage before too. But it’s not true for 4EATs.  I have no idea about nonsubarus so maybe this concept is borrowed from other manufacturers and/or eras (my guess - the 1970s and 1980s like other similar archaic shop ideologies) or manufacturers.

Multiple things are happening that create this mindset that’s been around for decades.

It may be true of other manufacturers or eras (older 70s and 80s trans). That doesn’t mean it’s true for this specific transmission.

Also it’s possible new fluid could amplify already existing issues. Got a weak transmission. Change old fluid. New fluid routinely can help a transmission shift better. On a trans with issues it might make the pre-existing issue more pronounced. It didn’t cause the issue - but it seems like it to someone unfamiliar and desperate for it not to need a new trans.

cost/desperation. Engine and trans are expensive. People go through the 5 stages of grief like Homer Simpson when these two topics come up. You can see it on the forum here and other forums. People desperate for some other explanation, eager to blame Subaru or a shop or dealer or fluid.  Extrapolate that through these other social realities

The only people who “change old fluid with tons of miles on it that shouldn’t be changed” are people who don’t change fluid. Lmao.  I’m almost not joking.  I’ve seen and know how it happens. They don’t change fluid…until something prompts them too.  Most of the people I’m around every week never change the trans fluid in their vehicles. “It ain’t broke don’t fix it” even though they change oil every 3,000 miles. So - They don’t change jt until they suspect there’s an issue and they hope it fixes it but it doesn’t and the trans quickly dies.  Keep in mind - Some of these people actually forget the original symptoms, forget the trans was initially problemstic before the fluid change. it was slight and they weren’t certain it was the trans but a noise or shake or shift made them think about it. So they had the fluid changed along with many other things over time snd the details got lost in the mix. They hear someone regurgitate the “don’t change old fluid” mantra - and the light bulb goes off “Oh no I did that and the fluid killed my trans”.  Revisionist history  sometimes accidentally.

Ive even done this accidentally forgetting stuff before but not with transmissions. Something reminds me months later that my assumption was wrong in the first place. And I’ve seen it in other people/vehicles,  it’s not uncommon.

People buy a new to them used car and change the fluid and the trans dies.  Well it was on craigslist for cheap because the previous owner had trans issues. Seen that before too.  correlation doesn’t mean causation, but that’s not a skill for most people. We are psychologically programmed to hate uncertainty, gravitate to simple explanations and avoid cognitive dissonance like a crazy ex friend  

Trans shops don’t rebuild ***4EATs*** and if they do, they shouldn’t or you shouldn’t have it done there. 4EATs done at trans shops are likely to need warranty work. Why - I don’t knew I imagine most arent set up for the scope of the tooling and process but in the end I don’t know. GD probably knows why. I’d install a jdm or used 4EAT with tons of miles before getting a random local rebuild (a major source of anecdotes like this).  Some shops want to blame something else or make excuses.  That’s a surprise to no one and they will also be more vocal about it.

anecdotal - no one saying this as an original source has extensive subaru specific experience or knows the 4EAT very well. Or they’re an outlier.

If the internals are so dirty that fresh fluid causes catastrophic contamination that trans was one Jack in the box full of garbage and ready to fail quicker than a plastic nuclear reactor before the fluid change. 

i have no problem changing 200k old fluid in Subarus. None. it’s because I’m the best Subaru mechanic in the Eastern US….oh wait that’s a correlation not a causation…my bad.  Lol

In any event - there’s a decades long track record of these ideas getting reinforced to perpetuate this throughout the DIY and shop world. 

[laegion]

On 10/20/2021 at 5:46 PM, heartless said:

actually, no, the 5spd auto is not better.. they are the weak link here.. the 4EAT would be the better tranny for durability.

the only place the 5spd beats the 4 spd is on the hiway - lower rpms at speed, better fuel mileage... but that is the only advantage

Exactly, and it can handle a lot more power than the 5 speeds they used in the 90's cars.

The first gear in the autos may be higher, but the torque converter gives it a huge leg up. I've seen what 5-speeds have to do to get around off road and I can't imagine a clutch would last long.

Plus the center diff paired with the auto is far better off road as it can and will actually lock in a 1:1 ratio. The viscous center in the manual transmission cars does not fully lock or ever give 50% front 50% rear.

 

If you're looking to carry more weight and get a mild lift, I'd suggest checking out the lifted King Springs on primitiveracing dot com. They lift about 1-1 1/4 inches. That's what I plan on doing with my OB as they stiffen and lift both.

Edited October 27, 2021 by laegion

[heartless]

@laegion - we were talking about the 5 speed automatic.. not the manual, lol

the 5spd automatic is not a good tranny for off road use.. maybe a little trail riding, but not real off road. manual not ideal, either, but that is a different topic

that would be comparing apples (autos) and oranges (manuals) to be honest.. both considered fruit, but vastly different

[GeneralDisorder]

KING raised height springs will raise it about 3/4". 

A lift kit from ADF, and some stock height KING springs is as much as I would do. And you are going to eat axles. 

H6 swap isn't in the cards. That's under the heading of "If you have to ask......." 

Keep it the way it is mechanically. Mild lift, KING springs, and some nice tires. 

GD

[el_freddo]

Easiest way todo a H6 “conversion” is buy a H6 model and convert it to manual. Much easier than an engine conversion! 

Forester rear struts won’t work on the Gen 3 platform, later model units from the SH onwards *might*. 

Many do a 2 inch strut lift without any issues. As GD said, replace your current springs for a standard height King spring (HD if you want a firmer ride) and you’ll be set. 

If going for raised springs you’ll have to add in subframe drop blocks as well (also known as a lift) to keep the CV angles happy. This build aims for best approach, departure and ramp over angles on a Subaru. 

SLO does a “monster lift” kit and others too that have the subframe drop from memory, they also do strut lift blocks if you’re just wanting some easy height over stock.

Cheers 

Bennie