need 2nd opinions before I hold Subaru dealer accountable (transmission issue?)

[tkyler]

2008 Subaru Outback, 54490 miles.  Owned 6 months, bought from one owner.  No problems at all at the 54450 mark when taken to dealer. Runs fine.  Average about 50 miles/day over past 6 months.   I take it in to the Subaru dealer for their "Express Service" a few days back....not because of any particular issue, but simply as a matter of routine maintenance after 6 months of ownership.

https://www.northparksubaru.net/subaru-express-service.htm

2 days later, I pick it up and drive it about 5-8 miles around the neighborhood running errands.   No apparent issues.  Later, on the highway however, at approx 25 miles after pickup from Subaru dealer, I then begin hearing some horrible sounds from the engine bay, moreso on the right side than the left as best as I can tell, but its vague.  The following video link below shows the sounds/symptoms as I drive.   In these videos, I am doing no more than 30 miles an hour and generally less than 2500 rpm though it sounds like its faster and higher RPM.  The video contains 3 clips.  I apologize they're not in chronological order of the drive.  Clip 1 happens first, then clip 3, then clip 2.  So this video shows one drive with 3 video clips taken along the drive. (27 MB *.mp4 format)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4a8p0xwp1e4cztd/outback_sounds.mp4?dl=0

It is my belief that the Subaru dealership either messed something up explicity during the service, or facilitated probable failure due to some kind of negligence during the express service.  It was running just fine before the service but not after.  I don't expect to cought up 1500.00 and have the vehicle run worse after the service.  If I take the vehicle right back to them (which I am promptly),  then I see it possible they might discover some error on their part, but could cover it up and say it was "normal failure" and bad timing; however, I didn't buy a 46000 mile Subaru and expect what you hear in the videos at 54000 miles.  Note that the express service incluced "front and rear differential service"...and I think this problem might be differential related?  but again,  I would appreciate any 2nd opinions here by any experts on what these sounds might be.  If its plausible Subaru facilitated the problem in some fashion, then I need to be prepared when the inevitable negotiation for repair begins.   Again, this is a stock 2008 Outback...even though it sounds like some souped up V8 in the videos.  The car does drive.  I don't know how fast it will go or the shifting behavior, I'm afraid to take it over 30mph atm as it sounds so bad.  Any expertise or "possibilities" are appreciated.

tkyler

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by tkyler

[idosubaru]

Check fluid levels.  Engine oil.  Front diff. Trans. 

No diff oil seems likely. Maybe leaked or forgot to top off. 

I’d diagnose it first before driving it anywhere.  Then call them and tell them.  Left them tow it and deal with it. 

And of course it could be coincidence and anecdotal. It’s not a shock to buy a used car and have issues soon that the previous owner was trying to get away from. 

[brus brother]

Random rattle is benign loose heat shield.

Box o rocks sound is scary. Check fluids.

[tkyler]

5 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Check fluid levels.  Engine oil.  Front diff. Trans. 

No diff oil seems likely. Maybe leaked or forgot to top off. 

 I’d diagnose it first before driving it anywhere.  Then call them and tell them.  Left them tow it and deal with it. 

And of course it could be coincidence and anecdotal. It’s not a shock to buy a used car and have issues soon that the previous owner was trying to get away from. 

Thank you very much for your inputs.  I am aware of "issues owner getting away from", but don't think thats the case here.   Its a lower mileage car and has been running great for 6 months and had wonderful maintenance records from the previous owner (one owner).  This went from "zero to bad" overnight...right after the service.  I'll discuss options with the dealer today and see how they want to handle given my oversight of diagnoses.

Edited November 12, 2021 by tkyler

[idosubaru]

5 minutes ago, tkyler said:

Thank you very much for your inputs.  I am aware of "issues owner getting away from", but don't think thats the case here.   Its a lower mileage car and has been running great for 6 months and had wonderful maintenance records from the previous owner (one owner).  This went from "zero to bad" overnight...right after the service.  I'll discuss options with the dealer today and see how they want to handle given my oversight of diagnoses.

Good due dilligence on your part. No need to plan for war or assume mischief. Give them a chance to comment and respond.  They have plenty of horrid demanding entitled customers, not a bad idea to avoid sounding like them.

The easiest way to do this is to simply check the gear oil immediately yourself (or friend coworker neighbor), take a video of it.  Hear the dealers response to the low oil over the phone and go from there. 

[idosubaru]

Oh and sorry for the mess. That’s gotta be a horrid experience after that time, effort, and outlay for a new to you car and service. 

It sounds like they forgot to add the diff oil after draining it, but online, can’t see the car, with nothing but circumstantial evidence isn’t exactly proof or scientific. 

[tkyler]

new development....went to move it from one side of my driveway this morning (let it warm up 5 mins) to other side of driveway so I can back out with my good car and it backed up OK (reverse works) but nothing when I put it in drive.  it just revs.  D just doesn't work now.

[tkyler]

My interface with Subaru service has been exemplary though.  They are going tow it in and we'll go from there. The service manager was sympathetic and mentioned that the service tech had an apprentice...."things that make you go hrmmmm"....  I'll report back for posterity and anybody else looking for similar info.   Thanks again all for input.

[brus brother]

twas good until

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Sounds like an exhaust leak to me. Which would be hard to correlate to fluid servicing. But it's hard to tell from that video. Just sounds louder. 

Doubt it's going to be a front differential. In my experience it would likely take more miles to fail than 20-30. Had a tire shop not a fill a front diff on a Tribeca about a year ago. It drove about 1200 miles before it ate the diff completely and seized up. They did say it sounded a bit louder when they picked it up but not alarmingly so. The tire shop denied having drained it despite them replacing an axle (which will cause the gear oil to leak out, thus you drain it first). 

Don't be an ignorant customer and demand it has to be their fault. That's not how machines work and regardless of mileage - the car is 13 years old and things like exhaust are subject to rust and corrosion based on age and driving conditions. I've fired a few customers over ignorance like that. Correlation is not causation. 

GD

Edited November 12, 2021 by GeneralDisorder

[rverdoold]

7 hours ago, tkyler said:

new development....went to move it from one side of my driveway this morning (let it warm up 5 mins) to other side of driveway so I can back out with my good car and it backed up OK (reverse works) but nothing when I put it in drive.  it just revs.  D just doesn't work now.

Very obviously something has gone wrong. But no movement in D seems no line pressure in the transmission (4EAT assuming). And that is most likely due to no or low oil (ATF). Did you check the oils.

Engine is on the front, ATF is on the Driver-side behind the engine, front diff is a mini stick on the passenger side.

But once listening again, and if oils are fine on the dipsticks. Then it could be that the upper shield of the exhaust is resting on the drive shaft to the back. 

Those plates show in this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UolUF1XXBsw).

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by rverdoold
added vid link

[tkyler]

The dealer towed it to service today, but can't get to it till Monday.  The service manager called me personally (a nice touch) and we have agreed that myself, the service manager, service tech and his apprentice will all look at the fluids together on Monday and go from there.   I'll report back after we get through Monday's diagnosis

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by tkyler

[brus brother]

Not intending to hijack this thread in anyway BUT last month on a 6 hour road trip from CT to Maine in my 2008 OB AT with 132K miles, I heard a whining noise from what i at first thought was new road/pavement noise. It stopped.

Sound came and went again on the return trip but then developed a new sound, a growling that I thought might be a front wheel bearing BUT today a Subie tech put it on a lift and heard the growling coming from the gearbox.

Pulled the gearbox dipstick and the fluid was full and clean as a whistle (at 132K miles??) even though I don't ever recall changing it.

Tech squirted some snake oil in (no charge) and suggested he would be looking into a used tranny in my future.

spoob happens but at your mileage, unless the car was abused (I guess my never changing the fluid might qualify for abuse) it is certainly disheartening.

I am hoping the model year 2008 OBs aren't imploding on cue!

Keep us posted. Fingers crossed.

Edit: Tech who did HGs at 95K seems to recall he drained and filled gearbox at the time

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by brus brother

[idosubaru]

12 hours ago, brus brother said:

Not intending to hijack this thread in anyway BUT last month on a 6 hour road trip from CT to Maine in my 2008 OB AT with 132K miles, I heard a whining noise from what i at first thought was new road/pavement noise. It stopped.

Sound came and went again on the return trip but then developed a new sound, a growling that I thought might be a front wheel bearing BUT today a Subie tech put it on a lift and heard the growling coming from the gearbox.

 

Ahhh that’s like a repeat of my Northern return fiasco driving back from New Hampshire with horrific vibrations as I nervously drove home with your offer of assistance.

Oddly nothing came of that and I made it home fine. I replaced the driveshaft in a junk yard in New Hampshire or Mass or something. Didn’t help. I can’t even recall what I did when I got home - I think new tires and a bushing or two. 

maybe you’ll get lucky and find something else that’s a little simpler…but that’s not sounding good. 

Front diff?  Seems unlikely but Could it be an axle?

[el_freddo]

It’s Monday here in Oz. Can’t wait for it to be Monday over there and the update shared. Hopefully something simple/cheap! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[tkyler]

The service manager said he'd contact me....so I'm slightly at the mercy of his schedule....though If I don't hear anything tomorrow by 1p local time (GMT - 6), I'll contact him...and hopefully this won't drag into Tuesday.

-tkyler

[tkyler]

We postponed till tomorrow, being a Monday, I'm not terribly surprised, but he did reach out to me as promised.  To be continued.

[tkyler]

Just got back from the dealer.  Props to the dealer, they brought me back to the lift for the initial inspection...I even helped push it in from where the tow truck dropped it off and they brought over their two most senior techs to investigate.   We checked ATF dipstick (not CVT model) before the lift and it showed fluid in it, but slightly low....for obvious reasons as we'll see next.  Once on the lift, we drained the front diff and surprise..... out popped ATF.....along with a LOT of broken metal parts.  We collected some fluid and It did not appear to any of us that there was any diff oil in the mixture.   The hypothesis by the senior techs is that the assigned tech and his apprentice probably got crossed up along the way and forgot/overlooked refilling the front diff after draining it....(idosubaru called it!)  and the front diff disentigrated in short order and the pieces punctured some wall  (I'm not familiar with the arrangement of the sumps/paths etc).......punctured some wall that allowed ATF to flow into the diff, which of course we observed when we drained the front diff. 

Either/or, the service manager  (after private consult with the senior techs)  graciously shook my hand and said, "we got this...this is on us".   I've made my share of mistakes and understand how things roll.....despite the inconvenience, but most importantly, I can't say enough about the transparency and integrity of this Subaru dealership and their service staff.

-tkyler

Edited November 17, 2021 by tkyler

[brus brother]

I love a happy ending.

You have the entire USMB behind you now.

Welcome to the board.

[idosubaru]

Awesome.  That’s fantastic to hear. 

Good job being patient and giving them a chance to do what they’re good at (well, the second time anyway).  

On 11/12/2021 at 8:38 AM, idosubaru said:

Good due dilligence on your part. No need to plan for war or assume mischief. Give them a chance to comment and respond.  

Thanks for replying back. These situations can be trying so I understand when people ask for help then disappear and never report back what happens. That’s also slightly an eye roll on our end, thanks for giving us the final chapter. Very  cool to see it wrapped up.

[tkyler]

Quote

That’s also slightly an eye roll on our end

Agreed...whats the point of posting an issue without final resolution for others learning.   The most satisfying part was it all "added up"...and I just wasn't some unlucky customer after all the due diligene I did purchasing the thing.    While its no fun to have to question others....a very personal thing...at the same time, I've made mistakes and was raised to "fess up when you mess up", with the understanding that we all do it and its part of the growing/learning process and its OK.   The failure just didn't pass the "sniff test of randomness" given all the situational facts, my experience with the vehicle as well as my own experience with failure analysis early in my career....so I had to question the process....and knowing there was a young, newly minted apprentice involved...it wasn't unreasonable.  I did my best to make sure that the dealer folks understood I can tolerate oopsies, but we needed to investigate openly and honestly...and they did so.   So to have the Subaru guys "fess up" was just awesome on a human scale...not to rub it in their face....its a fair amount of pressure catering to the public... but to know that my local Subaru dealer, indeed fellow San Antonians, have some sincere and honest folks who want to do right by their fellow man (not just because they're a customer).....those are my kind of folks!

-tkyler

Edited November 17, 2021 by tkyler

[rverdoold]

Unfortunately every one makes mistakes. But as long they are recognised and solved instead of made bigger it should be fine.

But now, since the gearbox will be out, maybe have the HG also done as you could have the potential ej253 as well.

[1 Lucky Texan]

please name dealership.

Yeah, I've worked in manufacturing mostly and we made mistakes, occasionally a 'doozy' but, it's how you handle it that matters.

 

[el_freddo]

That’s awesome mate. Glad they had your back with their stuff up - and that they were big enough to admit it and rectify the issue too! 

Hopefully the two employees that caused this issue weren’t fired over the matter - and that they learn from the experience so something like this doesn’t happen again! 

Well done on keeping your cool  

Cheers 

Bennie