rodneycahill Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 The thermostat stuck and the car got hot for 5 minutes. I refilled coolant, it stabilized then got hot again on a hill climb. It now drives around town fine, but will get hot if I thrash it. Mechanic 1 said head gasket - $1200 Mechanic 2 said "Ive done three 97 DOHC and the block is always cracked when I go to repalce the head gasket, you should get a replacement engine. Overheating symptoms also suggest cylinder damage" - $3000 Do I beleive 1 and throw $1200 into a $6500 car? Do I beleive 2 and offload the car as is for $3500?:-\ Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Hedrick Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 What do you mean by "I refilled coolant"? Had the cooling system lost coolant? Did you replace the faulty thermostat? Did you burp the cooling system? I'd flush and drain the cooling system, replace the t-stat, thoroughly burp the system and see what happens before unloading the car and before doing any expensive repairs. Always start with the simple stuff first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 The thermostat stuck and the car got hot for 5 minutes. I refilled coolant, it stabilized then got hot again on a hill climb. It now drives around town fine, but will get hot if I thrash it. Mechanic 1 said head gasket - $1200 Mechanic 2 said "Ive done three 97 DOHC and the block is always cracked when I go to repalce the head gasket, you should get a replacement engine. Overheating symptoms also suggest cylinder damage" - $3000 Do I beleive 1 and throw $1200 into a $6500 car? Do I beleive 2 and offload the car as is for $3500?:-\ Thanks Believe number 2, after you fix the motor the bottom end will usually go. Swap in a 2.2!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 What do you mean by "I refilled coolant"? Had the cooling system lost coolant? Did you replace the faulty thermostat? Did you burp the cooling system? I'd flush and drain the cooling system, replace the t-stat, thoroughly burp the system and see what happens before unloading the car and before doing any expensive repairs. Always start with the simple stuff first. Yeah the system lost coolant when it got hot. Not sure where from though. I should also mention that I took it into the dealer and they detected 440ppm of hydrocarbons in the coolant, ie. blown head gasket (and/or possibly cracked block). So, Im just trying to figure out the odds of any lower end damage. Would you think that say, 30% of head gasket failures are also cracked blocks? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted July 14, 2004 Author Share Posted July 14, 2004 Believe number 2, after you fix the motor the bottom end will usually go. Swap in a 2.2!!! Im leaning that way. I figure I can: a. Invest $1500 in a head gasket and sell it for $5500 - Profit = $4000 b. Invest $3000 in a new motor and sell it for $6500 - Profit = $3500 c. Sell it now and save myself the drama - Profit = $3500 It is just hard to stomach giving what was a $6000 car away for $3500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 It is just hard to stomach giving what was a $6000 car away for $3500. at least in the philly area, the trade-in value for the car wasn't that good either way. when i went to trade mine in, the best i could find was $4500. this was for a 99obw, 5-sp, 100k, leather, good condition, ding on front bumper. the other trade in offer was $2800. both knew i owed 8k on the car. i let the $2800 dealer know exactly what i thought of his offer. if it still runs, just dump in on a dealer. they are going to auction it anyway. i didn't have the confidence in my car to sell it privately. you probably won't get the money you spend on the repair back selling it... just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rweddy Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Im leaning that way. I figure I can: a. Invest $1500 in a head gasket and sell it for $5500 - Profit = $4000 b. Invest $3000 in a new motor and sell it for $6500 - Profit = $3500 c. Sell it now and save myself the drama - Profit = $3500 It is just hard to stomach giving what was a $6000 car away for $3500. Well if it is still running you might be able to trade it in to a dealer. They take them for a mini test drive but do not do much checking other than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotsubarus Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 I believe you have a head Gasket problem... The only Craked head is on the shoulders of the guy that feed you the BS about all the damage and the high cost. I just replaced the head gaskets i on a 98 forester and it cost the guy 875.00 ... I Replaced the head gaskets intake gasket valve cover gaskets oil seals ( cams, crank, rear main seal, and re sealed the Oil seperator plate) new timming belt changed the oil changed the Spark plugs and new Anti Freeze I removed and replaced the heads and when they were off i cleaned them with cleaners and checked for cracks which i have never found one and used a straight edge to check for warpage. If the mechanice knows how to remove the head carfully the right way the heads should not warp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaltree Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Very sorry to hear you are also having the same issues as me. I too have a 1997, with the 2.5L DOHC in an Outback wagon. I love the car, but despise the EJ25 engine. Worst engine I've ever seen. I'm faced with the same choice. I am choosing to swap in an EJ22. Every mechanic I talk to says the EJ22 is the best engine Subaru has made. The absolutely wonderful folks at Colorado Component Rebuilders at http://www.ccrengines.com/ have been a joy to work with. They have both the EJ22 and EJ25. They recommend the EJ22 as well. Also, they offer USMB members a "slight" discount, which can help make this process slightly less painful. I would recommend also writing Subaru. Not that anything will come from it, but if enough people complain, they will get tired of it. I've been writing to a very nice lady, Wendy Clough. She has been good at writing back. Unfortunately, nothing was helpful to my situation. You can contact her at "SOAMail<no--spam>@sun.subaru1.com". I ask that people please respect the person on the other end - as they are people too and just doing their job. If you wish to report your issue to them, use the email above and remove the "<no--spam>" from the address. Best of luck. Kevin Altree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddkageals Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 I'm in the same situation as you (sorta). I bought a '96 Outback with a supposedly blown head gasket. When I pulled the engine and removed the heads, I found a nice crack in the block. Thanks to a link that someone posted on this board, I found a 100K mile block for only $200.00. I am using my head and other stuff on the "new" shortblock. I did all the work myself and I would guess I have $700.00 in it by the time is all said and done. Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 My 1997 OBW with 139K was exhibiting signs of head gasket failure. I had it replaced - see thread titled preemptive head gasket replacement. It cost around $1,200. I went ahead and did it because I have friends with 185K and 192K on theirs, and there is nothing anywhere near the price range that meets my needs as well. It runs great and I'm glad I did it. I live in Boston and insurance on some new SUVs is $3,500. So this repair on a vehicle that's only cost a total of $1,100 in repairs in the previous 80,000 miles isn't going to kill me. Cars always cost money, they never give back. I'm no longer much of a mechanic but back in the day a mechanic did a compression test before he started talking about a cracked block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 Nice work, I aint got the gonads for that job. My 87 22r Toyota long block was tough enough. I might just have to suck it up and take the $3500. I could be missing out on $500-1000 by not doing the head gasket and a needed brake job (say $1500), and then selling it for $5500-6000, but I would be kicking myself if I had to go through with an entire replacement motor and possibly end up worse off. Plus Id have to go into CC debt to do the job, and thats a little sketchy. Still I've got a little nagging want to do the head job and see that the block is good. Ahhh, spending to much time on this decision!! Time to flick on channel 401 and watch some Aussie Rules and down a couple of coldies. Thanks for all your comments folks, maybe I'll see you on a Yoda or Honda website one day. One last thing, I was punching the gas pretty hard over a little hilly windy contry shortcut when it first blew. Pretending to be a rally champ and showing off to some mates in the car, silly bugger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 How do you diagnose the difference between a failed head gasket and a cracked block, without removing the heads? The car will drive around town fine. The temperature gage will stay at normal under normal driving. When I open it up to climb the nearby mountain range, it then gets hot. One mechanic interpreted this as a cracked cylinder "If it were a head gasket it would loose coolant under normal conditions....under load your cylinders get hot and the crack opens up.." Is this a valid conclusion? Are there any other methods to investigate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commuter Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 I have a 97 OB. The way the head gasket fails, the "leak" may only open up when the engine is under some load. Eg - towing, highway driving, hills. There have been cases where people drove around town and everything was fine. Compression tests were fine. All the tests indicated AOK. But... put some load on the engine... and the overheating would start. I never actually saw the gauge move at all on my car, and I was watching it closely. I discovered 'residue' in my coolant expansion bottle. I caught it early. And I was doing 90% highway driving at the time. I figure the leak was still quite small in my case. I never overflowed the expansion bottle, but it did fill nearly to the top. I had the bubbles coming up thru the bottle as well. Another tell-tale sign. Commuter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 failures to one cracked block. When you get the cracks is when you continue to overheat an engine. If you have not done that you should be fine. If it were mine it would get new gaskets and dirven till it dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 If I get the head gaskets replaced, should I will ask the mechanic to pressure test the block for cracks? How much extra should I pay for this? Should I get a second opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 cracks. if they are subie specialists they will know what to do. If they aren't subie folks don't go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrow Posted July 22, 2004 Share Posted July 22, 2004 Too bad about these HG problems. I just posted on another thread. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19163 I fixed it myself. Both head gaskets. Cost me ~$300 CDN for parts and ~$50 CDN for beer. But to try diagnose problems, a leakdown test will show you if it is the gasket or block cracked. Bubbles in overflow mean HG is blown. A drop in pressure and no bubbles in overflow tank means the gas is escaping into the crankcase. HG is easy to replace, just needs time and a garage to do it in. The jack in your car is enough raise the engine up and to one side while you do one, then the other side the same. A good socket set and a breaker bar or two are needed, plus a good torque wrench. I am no mechanic, just mechanically inclined. I got some pictures if anyone wants to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 there are times when no current conventional test, leakdown, compression, or tests for gas will find a failure. Oddly enought this would be the best time to fix it as it only leaks past the gasket under load and then just a bubble or two. At this point you would be unlikly to have any cracks or much warping of the heads. A number of folks have spoken about leaking only when the car gets hot on a trip. When it gets bad enough any convetional test will find the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted September 23, 2004 Author Share Posted September 23, 2004 Well, its been two months since the subie overheated, and it is still running! As long as I don't try to drive it over the mountain to the city, she stays on normal temp and doesn't loose coolant. So I am beginning to think maybe it is just a head gasket failure. If it were a crack in the head or block, I suppose that it would not be running so well. Does anyone agree or disagree? I am weighing up the decision to a) replace the gaskets, and replace the motor with a rebuild. Is it true you can replace the head gaskets yourself, without removing the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflow99 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 It's like we're living in parallel universes, I went to the dealership today to look at getting the head gasket job done, and he said that it's probably a cracked block. My car drives fine around town too, but I know I have to do some highway driving here soon, so I'm nervous. But I'm also not going to pay $800 for them to pull the engine and tell me if it's another $1600 for the gasket job, or even more for a new engine. So I'm just going to drive it, maybe thinking about unloading it at Carmax. Does anyone know the Blue Book Value on a '95 Legacy Wagon with ~168,000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotsubarus Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Sunflow99, I wouldnt think that you would be having the same problems as them, you have the 95 which is the 2.2L where they have the 97 with 2.2 which has alot of head gasket problems! I will send you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theotherskip Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 rodney, it probably is just the head gaskets, not a cracked block. i got told something similar by a dealer before i did mine myself. when you don't stress it too much, it won't overheat. i drove mine for over a month before replacing. i would only get bubbles after a high speed run on the highway. i wrote a site with info about doing it. you can do it with the block still in the car (read 99obw's post linked from my page), but it is easier to do with it out, and it isn't that difficult to pull. you can read notes on how to do it here: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze730qe/Head_gasket_replacement.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunflow99 Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Gotsubarus, yeah, you wouldn't think, but somewhere along the way, something happened, and everything on this board points to a headgasket or crack engine block. I would love to do it myself, but I live in an apartment complex, and I think there's something in the lease that says "no pulling Soob engines in the parking lot":) I've had the symptoms of a HG leak for over 2 years now, comes and goes about every 5-6 months, so I'm just going to keep driving her, hoping for the best, until it's paid off. I hate intermittent problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneycahill Posted September 30, 2004 Author Share Posted September 30, 2004 Thanks mate. I am just not sure I want to gamble $1200 to find out it was more than the gasket! Perhaps I should do the job myself, and reduce the size of the wager. My local mechanic quoted me $3600 for a brand new short block. If I plan to keep the car for a long while, I'd like to go that way, but then, the transmission has 140k on it. I guess I will keep driving it around town untill I get a word from God what to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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