FrankenBrat engine: where to go from here?

[torpedo51]

First post, forgive me if this isn't the right forum.

I acquired a 1964 VW Bus "barn find", with this home-brew power train:

EA81 shortblock, EJ22t heads, EA82 intake manifold, 1982 GM SPFI (1982 Camaro), Megasquirt ECU, Innovate Motorsports Lambda sensor.

The prior owner who concocted and fabricated this, put 20,000 miles on it in 2007 driving all over North America before it was parked and hasn't been driven since.
Worth nothing - the owners journal shows getting 33mpg out of this thing consistently.  Appears to have been a successful build, but it seems complicated and wonky.

My preference is to ditch the GM SPFI/Megasquirt in favor of a stock EA82 SPFI & ECU... but I assume the prior owner determined the stock equipment either didn't work or wasn't as efficient as a custom A/F mapping?  If I can't use the stock SPFI/ECU, I'd like to ditch the Megasquirt in favor of a current generation ECU (Haltech or AEM?).  

Thanks in advance for thoughts and alternatives on how to move forward.  

p.s. I've ruled out changing to an EJ20/EJ22 which may not fit and I don't have time to experiment with.

[idosubaru]

17 hours ago, torpedo51 said:

 

EA81 shortblock, EJ22t heads, EA82 intake manifold

My preference is to ditch the GM SPFI/Megasquirt in favor of a stock EA82 SPFI & ECU..l

That’s not remotely possible. With all the EA mentions I assume it’s an EA82T engine?

Can you post a picture of the engine?

EA and EJ engines easily swap - engine mounts are in the same location. And it’s relatively simple to bolt an EJ22 to an EA transmission. it’s worth looking into an EJ22 swap if it is an EA engine.  I get that custom installs are confusing and challenging but this is worth a look.

[torpedo51]

Its not an EA82T.  I work at an engine shop.

I don't have an EA trans; its a Rancho freeway flyer (VW).

I really don't have time to go deeper into this as an EJ conversion... just looking for some ideas on how to best implement the EA concoction that I have.

Thx!

 

[idosubaru]

7 hours ago, torpedo51 said:

Its not an EA82T.  I work at an engine shop.

I don't have an EA trans; its a Rancho freeway flyer (VW).

I really don't have time to go deeper into this as an EJ conversion... just looking for some ideas on how to best implement the EA concoction that I have.

Thx!

 

The combination you listed isn’t possible. 

Yes get ECU that matches the intake manifold.  But it’s going to want stock TPS, and other sensors as well. Hard to say what is stock or not or what you’ll run into on a custom job - and we know the listed engine/head/intake isn’t correct. 

[Numbchux]

You don't have time to do an EJ swap, but you do have time to reverse engineer someone elses bastard and start over?

 

If time is your concern, an EJ22 swap will take a lot less time then figuring out what you have, and redoing it. And the results will be 1000% better. This is not debateable. Yes, you'll have to spend $1k or so, as nothing you have will help. 

 

 

You do not have EJ heads on an EA81 block. I'm the first to say "anything is possible", but I really don't think that is. It's certainly so incredibly far beyond reasonable that nobody would have done it.

You cannot put one of these:

Here:

Edited December 14, 2021 by Numbchux

[6 Star]

It sounds like we need to see pictures of this Frankenstein.

Maybe its a hopped up aircraft EA81 with custom heads, like what RAM Engineering does

[el_freddo]

Or it’s a set of EA81t heads on an EA81 NA block, although running SPFI would negate the need for the EA81t MPFI heads, so I guess that’s out. 

I’m keen to see what you’re working with as it sounds very interesting and it’s got me intrigued! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[torpedo51]

Ok Ok... sorry to disappoint!  It seems we made a mistake identifying the heads.   There is a nearly complete EJ22T turbo system in a box here, so we thought the chef of this concoction had used the heads (there are references to working with these heads in the notes, so we'll explore that in a little more detail next week).

 Here are a few pictures of the long block in the middle of teardown.

Either way, the purpose of my post is to explore the best way to move forward with an ECU solution: stock, aftermarket, which aftermarket, something else... 

To those wondering why I thought exploring an EJ22 would be more time consuming than moving forward with a new ECU:  My transmission is already excellent, it already has an adapter plate known to fit, a complete exhaust system with lambda sensors known to fit and work, motor mounts known to fit and work, an entire cooling system known to fit and work, a compete operational A/C known to fit and work, and various other nuance fitments that have already been modified and adjusted successfully.  Seems a much lighter path forward to upgrade the ECU to this existing hardware than to start all over.  Unless there's a complete EJ2* kit that comes complete and with excellent installation instructions that I can install in less than 40 hours... I really don't have the time to explore it.  Appreciate the recommendation;  I'm sure an EJ2* is a good idea for someone else.  I just want to get this van running and on to the next project. 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by torpedo51

[torpedo51]

[Numbchux]

Alright, so you have a complete EA81. Decent engine.

Here's an old writeup about using EA82 SPFI on an EA81.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k4kdbpaclc6sko4/EA81_SPI_guide.pdf?dl=0

 

As for swapping to an EJ. These guys have been doing it forever. It's not cheap, but should solve basically all the fitment issues.

https://smallcar.com/vanagon/subaru-vanagon-conversion-parts/subaru-vanagon-parts-kit-4spd-vanagons-and-syncro/

 

Or, from the company that made the adapter you have:

https://www.kennedyeng.com/subaru-vanagon

Edited December 22, 2021 by Numbchux

[6 Star]

That EA81 looks very industrial painted yellow, like a CAT.

I like the custom bell-housing!

Noticed your oil pump removed in the photos. You are probably aware that those are NLA and hard to find in decent shape, and to take care of your current pump if it isn't scored-up like a Record.

[el_freddo]

Awesome. The EA81 will do the job and just keep going if you keep the fluids up to it. It won’t be fast though. 

The EJ22 will be all of the above with some added speed ability too. Still no WRX but a good load of usable torque to help move things along. 

Got a pic of your EFI setup? Being EA81 I think you’ll find no advantages to throwing coin at an aftermarket engine management system...

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

Yep EA81.  EJ swap mentions were based on not knowing what made this impossible set up that landed in your lap.

now that we know it’s not custom at all, or special, not mixed parts, and just a plain old EA81, this is much simpler. 

Id look into an SPFI rig he mentioned. 

[torpedo51]

5 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Yep EA81.  EJ swap mentions were based on not knowing what made this impossible set up that landed in your lap.

now that we know it’s not custom at all, or special, not mixed parts, and just a plain old EA81, this is much simpler. 

Id look into an SPFI rig he mentioned. 

I said in my OP:  "p.s. I've ruled out changing to an EJ20/EJ22 which may not fit and I don't have time to experiment with."
I've done my best to avoid EJ Swap info, LOL!

Why do all of you think the creator of this thing decided to use a GM SPFI instead of factory EA82 (did I get that right?) setup in the first place?  Seems a lot of work to create a harness and do the A/F mapping, if the stock equipment was perfectly capable?  This is really the question that I'm getting at with this post... and if the answer is that the stock equipment is someone insufficient, then perhaps some insight as to why might help to select a good aftermarket ECU.

Thanks!

 

 

[idosubaru]

10 hours ago, torpedo51 said:

I said in my OP:  "p.s. I've ruled out changing to an EJ20/EJ22 which may not fit and I don't have time to experiment with."
I've done my best to avoid EJ Swap info, LOL!

Why do all of you think the creator of this thing decided to use a GM SPFI instead of factory EA82 (did I get that right?) setup in the first place?  Seems a lot of work to create a harness and do the A/F mapping, if the stock equipment was perfectly capable?  This is really the question that I'm getting at with this post... and if the answer is that the stock equipment is someone insufficient, then perhaps some insight as to why might help to select a good aftermarket ECU.

Thanks!

 

 

Was already familiar with GM parts 

Didnt know subaru SPFI was an option or how easy it was

Didnt want to look for 30 year old Subaru parts

Or like you suggested didn’t like the old Subaru tech  But I’d guess one one the early guesses is more likely 

Is the GM set up even worth trying to get working? Or it’s that convoluted?

 

[torpedo51]

You're probably right!

The GM +MS were working when the car was put into storage... is it worth keeping?  I dunno.  I'm asking the same question.  Here's another pic.

Here's another observation: I'd score this custom SPFI functionality as a 10/10 being that the owner's notes are showing 30+mpg for several continental wide excursions within 8 months, the aesthetic of the installation is a 5/10 because its not pretty or new but fortunately there aren't any wire splicers or electrical taped connections, and the overall complexity is probably 10/10 because of the GM/Megasquirt/MSD ignition and all of the scratch built wiring, fuel mapping, intake adapter plate, radiator installation and matching fuel pump.   

I would think that restoring this to a factory harness and factory SPFI would simply the remainder of this project tremendously.  However, I don't want some trashy 40 year old wiring and a corroded ECU with bunky solder joints.  Is the EA82 the SPFI version of the EA81? Is there a vendor who sells a repro or new harness, and perhaps a new or reconditioned SPFI?  If there's an existing post in the forum that has this info, please help me find it.

If not... my preference is to put something new and reliable in it... hence the suggestion to use a new Haltech & universal harness, new sensors, and keep the GM SPFI.

Is it possible to restore an EA81/82 to "like new" condition without building the harness from scratch?

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by torpedo51

[Numbchux]

EA82 was sort of an evolution of the EA81 (EA81 being 80-87 and EA82 85-94, here in the US), but with a lot of major changes. Biggest being the switch to overhead cams and timing belts (which moved the distributor).

The single port intake manifolds can be swapped between them, so an EA82 manifold is a direct bolt on. But, there are other challenges (biggest being the distributor...).

 

EA82 is a dinosaur (so is the EA81, but at least it's simple). Almost completely unsupported. Now, most of the parts you'd be using for the SPFI swap are simple and reliable. But no, there is not really any new anything available for it. You'd need a used front harness from an SPFI car, and cut out all the stuff that's not engine related (pretty detailed information in the write-up). Used throttle body, used ECU, used distributor pickup, etc. Again, these parts are not exactly prone to failure, but they're still 30-35 years old. And even if it works, it's still 35 year old technology....

When I get some free time (HA!), I would like to use a Speeduino and an EA82 intake/TBI on my Brat. But I only use it around the yard. I think I would use something a little more powerful/supported for a street car (I say that without actually having used the speedy, lots of people use them on the street).

 

Sorry to bring up the EJ so much. Your first post sounded like a complete nightmare, so I jumped too quickly to "start over". I do think you'd be happier with the end result of an early OBDII EJ22, and there are solutions for most of your concerns. But it's certainly not your only option.

[idosubaru]

How about a carburetor?  I hate them with a passion and try to buy anything without them - tractors, generators my buddy just got an FI chain saw.  carbs suck.  But for simplicity you'd be running in no time and you can rebuild/make them new-ish I think?

In a currently running vehicle I woudln't be concerned about reliabilty of the SPFI - I'd just have a spare computer for back up and call it a day.  Heck many of us have these EA vehicles parked in our driveway right now with original harnesses that have been in use since the 80's with minimal, if any issues.  Most of us aren't breaking down yearly.  But getting a used one brigns into question what was wrong with it, how was it stored, did it sit with rodents, weather, exposed for extended periods, etc. 

I wouldn't be too worried sourcing one, trying to ascertain condition, and visually inspecting all the connectors for corrossion. 

[torpedo51]

Thanks for all the great responses.  I'm committed to putting this thing back together the way it was, because it seems to be the path of least resistance for now.  If the MegaSquirt didn't retain its program, I'll take it to a tuner.  If the MegaSquirt is dead, I'll replace it.  I can repair some of the bunky wiring, connectors and sensors (that's my personal specialty).  I found a new fuel injector for the TBI and a new fuel pump.  The block halves came back from machining, the heads and camshafts are back from our trustworthy rebuilder.

So my last question is... where do I get reliable rebuild components for this?  Gasket set, bearings, pistons, rings, pushrods, seals, headbolts, etc.  Also - I don't know what car this came out of... the year, the make, the model.   So if there are some nuances between models and model years, please let me know so that I can chase down appropriate casting marks/codes or obtain the better options.  

Note: the oil pump and water pump appear functional, so I'll try to reuse those UNLESS there's a reliable new/remanufactured option out there?

If I need to move this portion of the conversation to a new or existing thread, please let me know!

Thanks in advance.  If this works out I'll take on the next project, and I'll use an EJ22.