Vibration In Front End After Struts, Tie Rod Ends, and Ball Joints

[Daskuppler]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have a 2014 Forester which has developed a vibration/clunking in the front end.  As the title says, I recently replaced struts, tie rod ends, and ball joints.  The alignment came back in just fine and is spot on.  The clunking is getting worse, and seems to be isolated to the passenger side though it is hard to say.  I cannot feel it in the steering wheel or brake pedal.  The clunking is only present when I let off the gas, it is not there under acceleration and goes away when the brakes are applied.  I was thinking maybe a bad CV joint, but I'm not sure.  The boots look fine, but they were rebuilt maybe 15k ago.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[1 Lucky Texan]

it's a lot of trouble, but the axles will swap left-to-right. see if the noise travels with the axle?

[Daskuppler]

1 minute ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

it's a lot of trouble, but the axles will swap left-to-right. see if the noise travels with the axle?

I'd probably be more inclined to just replace them at that point, but it is an $800 bill so that's depressing haha

[idosubaru]

Your title says "vibration in front end *after*...."

Do you mean that - that the vibration started after all that work?   If so - then one of those parts is likely the problem.  What brand parts were used for those items?

Maybe the CV was internally pulled apart or not fully seated back into the trans after the work...depending how bad the symptoms are - that would normally almost undrivable, but can drive that way, just usually aggressive enough symptoms most people woudl be terrified to do so. 

Or do you mean the symptoms prompted all that work and the symptoms still persist after it?

Can you describe the vibration more?  Is it's rhythmic like to the tires? 
Is it front, center, rear, left or right? 
Is it always there or only sometimes? 
How does it compare to a wheel bearing failing?  Are those suspected?
How old are the tires?
Have the tires been rotated front to back to see if the symptoms move to the front/back?

Describe the clunk - a one time clunk or something else? 
Random thunk or repeating at even intervals?

Who's idea was it to replace all those tie rods, ball joints, and struts?
That's an excessive amount of work for a 2014 Forester, Subaru tie rods and ball joints are robust and no often in need of replacement, making them poor choices to replace as a guess. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by idosubaru

[Numbchux]

Came here to post what @idosubaru posted.

 

I also want to add if the vibration changes one way or the other while braking?

Edited December 16, 2021 by Numbchux

[Daskuppler]

The work was done because there was a shake coming from there passenger side front tire on high-speed sweeping left turns. Before the work was done, I verified that the tie rod end was infact blown in that wheel. It was rusted to the inner so I cut it off and replaced both, I did the same with the driver side since I was going to have an alignment done. The struts were replaced because they were pretty rusted and the car had 115k rough miles on it. I used KYB struts.  The ball joints were replaced since it was all apart and they were quite rusty, one of them was blown. Both pinch bolts broke off and were drilled out and replaced with a through bolt and nut.  The tie rod ends and ball joints were Moog and the sway bar end links were Napa premium chassis.

The current noise/vibration sounds very similar to a warped rotor but nothing is felt in the steering wheel or brake pedal. The rotors were replaced with factory rotors and pads are at 50%.

The noise is audible at speeds over 35mph and is not present under acceleration, though it might be hard to hear. It also goes away when brakes are applied.  The noise appeared about 20 miles after the alignment was done and was first noticed at highway speeds. It sounds like it is coming from passenger front center. I did not notice the noise with the card on Jack stands.

There is no play in the front wheel or noise indicating a bad wheel bearing but I'm not a mechanic so I'm not 100% positive.

37 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

Your title says "vibration in front end *after*...."

Do you mean that - that the vibration started after all that work?   If so - then one of those parts is likely the problem.  What brand parts were used for those items?

Maybe the CV was internally pulled apart or not fully seated back into the trans after the work...depending how bad the symptoms are - that would normally almost undrivable, but can drive that way, just usually aggressive enough symptoms most people woudl be terrified to do so. 

Or do you mean the symptoms prompted all that work and the symptoms still persist after it?

Can you describe the vibration more?  Is it's rhythmic like to the tires? 
Is it front, center, rear, left or right? 
Is it always there or only sometimes? 
How does it compare to a wheel bearing failing?  Are those suspected?
How old are the tires?
Have the tires been rotated front to back to see if the symptoms move to the front/back?

Describe the clunk - a one time clunk or something else? 
Random thunk or repeating at even intervals?

Who's idea was it to replace all those tie rods, ball joints, and struts?
That's an excessive amount of work for a 2014 Forester, Subaru tie rods and ball joints are robust and no often in need of replacement, making them poor choices to replace as a guess. 

 

[idosubaru]

Description is hard to follow with just words, but that's normal on symptoms like this.  It's more of an art/feel than words can easily get to......during sweeping turns but goes away while braking.  If you take the same sweeping turns with symptoms at the same speed but apply brakes while doing so...what happens?  Does it not do it while brakign simply becaues you're less likely to be traveling that speed on a sharp turn or is it definitively braking related?  If it *immediatley* goes away while braking then I'd suspect the brakes. 

***With that much rust inspect the caliper slide pins. 
***Remove or replace the rubber bushings on the slide pins.

If the slide pins were ever regreased with regular brake grease then the bushings are swollen and causing the issue.  Replace and use Sil Glyde or the high grade synthetic (i think it's the purple or green can of Permatex).  if regular permatex caliper grease was ever used - that's the issue. 

Brakes 

Wheel bearing - modern wheel bearings are notoriously hard to diagnose.  Generic old school ideas about bearing play and noise can be placed in the trash. 

Bushings

CV axle inner joint

Edited December 16, 2021 by idosubaru

[Numbchux]

Yep. My first step would be to inspect, clean and lubricate all the moving parts in the brake system.

[Daskuppler]

The issue on turns was before the work was done. It is separate from the present issue and no longer present.

I'm confused as to why the brakes are even in question, they were never touched.

Is there a way to diagnose the wheel bearing and/or CV joints. There is no clicking present on sharp turns.

[1 Lucky Texan]

is noise only, vibration only or both?

 

is the sound equal to; 1 tire rotation, 3x t rot, or 6x t rot ? can someone pace the car and hear anything at slow speed?

 

could you use a length of hose at each end of each axle and hear any difference with the front up on jackstands and spin the tires by hand?

 

I found a bad wheel bearing by lift/rocking in the 12/6 o'clock direction. Should not move. You can compare L side with R side if unsure. Some folks can rest a hand on the spring and feel the roughness in a bearing turning by hand on jcakstands. Or by listening with a hose/mechanic's stethoscope.

 

confirm inner stub of axles are fully seated in the trans.

Edited December 16, 2021 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Daskuppler]

1 hour ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

is noise only, vibration only or both?

 

is the sound equal to; 1 tire rotation, 3x t rot, or 6x t rot ? can someone pace the car and hear anything at slow speed?

 

could you use a length of hose at each end of each axle and hear any difference with the front up on jackstands and spin the tires by hand?

 

I found a bad wheel bearing by lift/rocking in the 12/6 o'clock direction. Should not move. You can compare L side with R side if unsure. Some folks can rest a hand on the spring and feel the roughness in a bearing turning by hand on jcakstands. Or by listening with a hose/mechanic's stethoscope.

 

confirm inner stub of axles are fully seated in the trans.

It is primarily noise, you can feel it every so slightly in the floor boards.  I put the car on jack stands and was not able to discern any difference between left and right.  There was no play in the wheel.  I did take it out for another short drive and noticed that when I load the right wheel in a turn the noise became louder.  I ordered a wheel bearing so we will see what that does.  The rear on on the same side went out a little while ago so maybe there was an impact on the passenger side that is still causing problems.  The bearing should be here today and I should be able to install it tomorrow.  I'll follow up with any changes.

[idosubaru]

 

On 12/16/2021 at 2:15 PM, Daskuppler said:

The issue on turns was before the work was done. It is separate from the present issue and no longer present.

I'm confused as to why the brakes are even in question, they were never touched.

Is there a way to diagnose the wheel bearing and/or CV joints. There is no clicking present on sharp turns.

Odd.  I have suspicions about why that happened, but it won't matter so I'll ignore the symptom change for now. 

On 12/16/2021 at 2:15 PM, Daskuppler said:

I'm confused as to why the brakes are even in question, they were never touched.

Because the caliper pin bushings can gradually resist and then seize (usually due to swelling - there's one per caliper on that car) and cause noise and potentially, though less likely, vibrations.  They slowly start to get stiff inside the bore, and the caliper wants to "rock" as one pin slides fine, and one doesn't.  So the symptoms gradually get worse and include noise and eventually vibrations as the bushing worsens from resistance to totally seized in place and the caliper movement is crooked and pads wear unevenly front to back, the caliper is cock eyed...etc - leading to noises. 

On 12/16/2021 at 2:15 PM, Daskuppler said:

Is there a way to diagnose the wheel bearing and/or CV joints. There is no clicking present on sharp turns.

Familiarity. Us Subaru folks could probably drive it one time and we'd know. 

Modern wheel bearings are hard to diagnose.  They can pass every test on the vehicle. 
A. Check for play.  (this one is basically a waste of time on Subaru's - it happens so much less often than other symptoms I don't even bother)
B. Rotate huge (wheel off) by hand and feel for resistance or noise in a certain spot. 
C.  Use a mechancis stethostope around the wheel bearing while turning the wheel
D. Use an infrared temp gun - check both sides after driving a reasonable distance - if one is 50+ degrees hotter than the other you found your bad wheel bearing (assuming brakes are working correctly).  

 

 

CV joints - the inner joint will not click like the outer joint.  First check the boot for signs of breakage or loss of grease. 

One of the most consistent tests I've found for the inner CV is to do this: 
1. with car at a full stop make a close to 90 degree turn while giving it gas all the way through the turn (you don't have to floor it just give it consistent acceleration/loading)

2. this might vary or not be true but I think it works best when the car is at a stop facing UP a steep incline, then start the turn from a stop.  

Listen for a noise then.  I'm going to call it "clicking" because that's probably the best word but it won't sound like the traditional "CV clicking" most people are accustomed to with the outer joints.  Less frequency and more of a dull thunk thunk thunk and less audible, than a typical outer CV joint.   Like you might just hear three muffled, rythmic (happening at equal intervals) thunks instead of the numerous small clicks of a typical outer joint.

[Daskuppler]

Replacing the wheel bearing fixed the problem

[idosubaru]

11 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

Replacing the wheel bearing fixed the problem

Awesome. Thanks for reporting back 

 

11 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

there was a shake coming from there passenger side front tire on high-speed sweeping left turns. 

 

11 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

when I load the right wheel in a turn the noise became louder. 

If it’s a whir whine roar or groan those symptoms while turning are wheel bearings every time on Subarus.

CVs happen on slower sharper turns, not wide sweeping turns at speed.  

Had I seen those two comments outside of all the other text it would have been obvious.