How to verify mechanic (corporate shop) destroyed my engine

[Todd Toddman]

Driving my Outback home from Midas on Tuesday (1/18/22) the car died coming over a hill and wouldn’t start back up. Towed it back to Midas where they checked the timing belt and drained the oil which had metal shavings. Midas doesn’t want  to open it up to investigate. They say they are capable and equipped, but they no longer do that kind of work.

I realize that there’s a 95% chance the engine is toast. Before I replace the engine I need to open it up and find out what happened.

Could they have done something when replacing the oil pan gasket that could have caused it to seize up?

on December 23rd they had changed the timing belt (and cam shaft seal), but left the bolt on the tensioner loose enough that it slipped. I had shown up to pick it up, started it, noticed it sounded weird and turned it off after a minute. The mechanic came out and had me start it again. It ran for another minute while we listened and tried to figure out what it was. They looked it over the next day and they said it was fine.

I have driven the car probably 400 miles over the last 4 weeks. Is there still a chance that the engine was damaged by the timing slip, but wouldn’t completely fail for a month?  What would it look like?

Or, was it a mistake having to do with the oil pan gasket?

What should I be looking for?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Todd Toddman

[moosens]

Which engine / year / model ? 
 

My vote is they oil pan deal. Maybe they hit the siphon tube ? 
 

Good luck with it. Hope you don’t need an attorney for this.

[idosubaru]

How long have you owned this car? If it’s a recent purchase number 2 is more likely.

It sounds like you’re chasing oil leaks. “cam seal replaced”….not long after….”oil pan seal replaced”. This makes number 2 sound likely.

Other than that missing info:

1. The pan doesn’t easily drop out like it looks like.  It looks like it does but the sump won’t clear the pan baffles so the engine needs lifted.  So if they’re used to some other easy cars/truck manufacturers that just unbolt and come off they could have wrestled the pan and damaged the sump.  

Pull the pan and check the sump. If it’s damaged then they wrestled it off.  Given it a Midas that sees all makes and models it would be very easy to look at a Subaru and think it’s easy and try to rip the pan off and damage the sump. 

2. If the cam seal, pan (and maybe other items) were leaking then it could have previously been run very low on oil which frequently comprises the lower end bearings.

3. They forgot to add oil. How much came out when they drained it?

[Todd Toddman]

12 hours ago, moosens said:

Which engine / year / model ? 

'99 Legacy Outback Wagon, with the EJ25D engine.

My vote is they oil pan deal. Maybe they hit the siphon tube ? 

I'm heading to Midas in the AM to have it towed. I'll ask if they lifted the engine when changing it.

Good luck with it. Hope you don’t need an attorney for this.

If I can prove that this was because of their mistake, I definitely will get an attorney.

 

[Todd Toddman]

11 hours ago, idosubaru said:

How long have you owned this car? If it’s a recent purchase number 2 is more likely.

I purchased this '99 Legacy Outback Wagon, with an EJ25D back in late March.

It sounds like you’re chasing oil leaks. “cam seal replaced”….not long after….”oil pan seal replaced”. This makes number 2 sound likely.

I have been chasing leaks. In December alone I spent so much on seals and gaskets I could have already paid for and installed a low-mileage engine. If it was just a little oil leak I don't know if I would have done this, but the oil always makes it's way to the exhaust manifold, causing a lot of smoke.

2. If the cam seal, pan (and maybe other items) were leaking then it could have previously been run very low on oil which frequently comprises the lower end bearings.

I didn't realize until June that a previous owner tampered with the odometer. It reads 260K now, so they probably tampered with around 100K miles back. Having no idea what it's actual history is, it could have been run low on oil, it could have 500K miles on it. Or both.

3. They forgot to add oil. How much came out when they drained it?

I have to have the car towed home in the morning, and I now have some good questions to ask.

 

[idosubaru]

Good feedback. Unfortunately there’s no way to tell what caused it without definitive tangible evidence. Oil leaks are a predominant and ubiquitous cause of lower end failure exactly like you’re seeing.  

Oil gets low, then the oil overheats, degrades, localized overheating comprises the bearing surfaces, which take awhile to actually fail.  Like days weeks or months depending how bad the initial damage was.

So you’d need quantitative proof they caused this. Not just guesses.

The easiest way it’s their fault is if the sump is bent or it was low on oil. But if they already drained the oil there’s no way to verify how much came out. So the sump is the item to inspect. But that requires pulling or cutting the pan off to look at.

How do you know the mileage was tampered with?

If you’ve been “chasing oil leaks” either this car may have been in rough shape with many leaks or the shop didn’t do a great job of diagnosing what was causing the leaks to begin with. 

[Todd Toddman]

12 hours ago, idosubaru said:

How do you know the mileage was tampered with?

It took me a while because I have a lead foot, but I realized the speedometer is off by approximately 13%. All forums point to odometer tampering as the cause.

I’ll have the sump checked this week. I’ll post what we find here. 
 

You don’t believe any consequential damage may have been caused by the timing slip that happened several weeks ago?

[1 Lucky Texan]

maybe you have incorrect sized tires and/or the transmission was swapped from a vehicle with a different final drive ratio. Odometers are usually 'rolled back' (total mileage reduced) but that is not going to affect the rate of accumulation.

[Todd Toddman]

12 hours ago, idosubaru said:

So you’d need quantitative proof they caused this. Not just guesses.

Which is why I thought starting here was the right choice. A lot of the mechanics around here won’t want to touch it if they believe this is part of a potential lawsuit. But, if I have one or two questions I need answered, that’s likely straightforward enough. I realize I probably should have brought it home to begin with, but I didn’t know Midas wasn’t willing to investigate it fully. 

 

[Todd Toddman]

Just now, 1 Lucky Texan said:

maybe you have incorrect sized tires and/or the transmission was swapped from a vehicle with a different final drive ratio. Odometers are usually 'rolled back' (total mileage reduced) but that is not going to affect the rate of accumulation.

The tire size is standard for this model. Not only is the speedometer off, but the miles are wrong (my work trips are now way over in total miles). This tells me they were imprecise when putting it back together.

 

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Todd Toddman said:

16 hours ago, idosubaru said:

How do you know the mileage was tampered with?

It took me a while because I have a lead foot, but I realized the speedometer is off by approximately 13%. All forums point to odometer tampering as the cause.

I’ll have the sump checked this week. I’ll post what we find here. 
 

You don’t believe any consequential damage may have been caused by the timing slip that happened several weeks ago?

It wasn't tampered with.  The speedometer is off because the transmission was swapped to another gear ratio transmission.  It's common.  

It's impossible for the timing belt to cause metal shavings in the oil like you're describing.

You never told us what you meant by "timing slip".  You never said it was fixed - just that you had it looked at, they said it was fine to drive, and you drove 400 miles.  That doesn't sound like a problematic timing slip.  It doesn't matter what happened, we know it's unrelated because when a compromised timing belt damages the engine it can't in anyway introduce metal to the oil.  So they are unrelated.  

Also, if it slipped enough to cause damage - it would have needed repaired the moment it happened. 

If timing belts slip on an interference engine (which yours is), the pistons bend the valves, rendering the car undrivable,  or it drives terribly, or no damage at all.  It wasn't undrivable and you didn't say any severe performance issues.  So there was no damage. 

The moment the belt "slips" (ambiguity notwithstading) it's either damaged or not. It can't cause issues later.  

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Todd Toddman said:

Which is why I thought starting here was the right choice.

Absolutely, it was a great idea to post here.  I've been all around these engines for decades, so my questions and comments are aiming for clarity to help you.

[Todd Toddman]

45 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

You never told us what you meant by "timing slip".  You never said it was fixed - just that you had it looked at, they said it was fine to drive, and you drove 400 miles.  That doesn't sound like a problematic timing slip.  It doesn't matter what happened, we know it's unrelated because when a compromised timing belt damages the engine it can't in anyway introduce metal to the oil.  So they are unrelated.  

While doing the Cam Seals they noticed the Timing Belt was worn and cracked, and replaced it. They didn't bother to call me, at which point I would have told them to do the whole kit - I had them do up a quote a few weeks prior and they knew this was on the list of things that needed to get done soon. Anyhow, they either didn't secure the old tensioner well enough, or it failed. They claimed to have done a test drive, but when I started it up to take it home the tensioner was loose. They pulled it back in, verified that there was no damage, and went ahead and did the full timing kit.

I only learned what an interference engine was this year. So, I had to ask if this timing slip could have caused just enough damage that it failed weeks later. It sounds like that isn't the case. I have lined up a mechanic who will check for damage to the sump. Thank you for your advice and expertise. You have been immensely helpful.

 

 

[idosubaru]

Got it.  Failed timing components can't introduce visible, demonstrable amounts of metal into the oil.

Metallic sauce in the oil is usually caused by oil starvation to the affected parts.

[Todd Toddman]

On 1/24/2022 at 1:58 PM, idosubaru said:

Got it.  Failed timing components can't introduce visible, demonstrable amounts of metal into the oil.

Metallic sauce in the oil is usually caused by oil starvation to the affected parts.

I have to wait a couple weeks to get it opened up and these things confirmed. But, when I picked the car up from Midas the other day they showed me the picture of the metal that came out when they drained the oil: they were large pieces of the bearing casings. Now, if and when we go to court to court they are going to claim this failure is unrelated to the work they did. What are the odds no metal would show up in the oil when they drained it to do the oil pan gasket, but it would then completely and spectacularly fail?

Im anxious to figure all this out now so I can prep my case. I would open it up myself, but I’m sure a judge will want to see the diagnosis on an invoice from a shop.

[idosubaru]

On 1/28/2022 at 5:27 PM, Todd Toddman said:

I have to wait a couple weeks to get it opened up and these things confirmed. But, when I picked the car up from Midas the other day they showed me the picture of the metal that came out when they drained the oil: they were large pieces of the bearing casings. Now, if and when we go to court to court they are going to claim this failure is unrelated to the work they did. What are the odds no metal would show up in the oil when they drained it to do the oil pan gasket, but it would then completely and spectacularly fail?

Im anxious to figure all this out now so I can prep my case. I would open it up myself, but I’m sure a judge will want to see the diagnosis on an invoice from a shop.

1. You’re first strategy is already loosing a court battle by showing your bias - you are assuming “no metal showed up in the oil when they changed the gasket”. There very well could have been metal in the oil they just didn’t look or see it.

2. Less than year old vehicle, unknown history, 24 years old, copiously leaking oil, worst engine Subaru ever made - it’s not surprising for an EJ25 under those conditions to loose a bearing  

EJ25s frequently fail after purchase like this because the former owner had hints of issues. Those hints prompted them to sell.

That’s why I asked “how long have you owned this car” - because it’s an EJ25 prone to MASSIVE headgasket issues and overheating which compromises the bearings. You’re not thr first person to buy an EJ25 and have it blow a bearing in less than a year.  Lots of online threads of the same experience  

3. The only way it could be “proven” to be their fault is if you find a bent sump. So the good news is you don’t have to be a sluth or engineer here to figure this out. 

The chief issue will be pulling that pan and inspecting the sump in a way that verifies legitimacy to all sides, including Midas and thr court who will have to weigh one professional business “Midas” against a second professional business “Whoever you pay to pull the engine apart”  

Best to let Midas pull the pan and see and let you be there when they do. They probably have insurance if they see an obvious flaw. Not that they want to abuse it and have rates go up   

They can’t be liable for unsavory people who pull the pan, bend the sump themselves in order to try to blame Midas and get a free engine. I know of a Subaru dealer in an economically blighted urban area that quit working on Subarus more than 15 or 20 years old due to issues like this.  I’m not saying you will do this but you have to be prepared for this reality if you think you’re going to prove this to anyone other than yourself.

All of that said - I guess you’re in good shape because the judge will be mechanically, and Subaru, illiterate and knows none of this.  So they will just roll the dice and guess or force a settlement that’s not great for both parties probably.  

Id put the money and time into getting an EJ22 instead - they’re plug and play interchangeable for the EJ25 in that engine and incredibly reliable. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by idosubaru

[1 Lucky Texan]

Not knowing how often, or severely, the bad head gaskets caused engine overheating is a major question mark in the chain of events. Severe overheating leads to poor lubrication which can lead to rod or other engine bearing failure.

[Todd Toddman]

7 hours ago, idosubaru said:

1. You’re first strategy is already loosing a court battle by showing your bias - you are assuming “no metal showed up in the oil when they changed the gasket”. There very well could have been metal in the oil they just didn’t look or see it.

I certainly wouldn't expect them to pay close attention if this had been just an oil change. However, the two mechanics they have that work on Subarus had worked on this car 6 different times over the last 6 weeks. They were methodically eliminating issues, trying to make it run better. By the time they were replacing the oil pan gasket I definitely would expect them to be paying attention for signs of more serious issues.

3. The only way it could be “proven” to be their fault is if you find a bent sump. So the good news is you don’t have to be a sluth or engineer here to figure this out. 

The chief issue will be pulling that pan and inspecting the sump in a way that verifies legitimacy to all sides, including Midas and thr court who will have to weigh one professional business “Midas” against a second professional business “Whoever you pay to pull the engine apart”  

The shop I have lined up to check the condition of the sump has been around for 40 years and has a great reputation. Midas (this shop and several others in Oregon) on the other hand, have a long list of unresolved consumer complaints listed on the State of Oregon's website.

Best to let Midas pull the pan and see and let you be there when they do. They probably have insurance if they see an obvious flaw. Not that they want to abuse it and have rates go up   

When the engine failed upon pick-up I had it brought directly back to their shop. Their interest in investigating the cause of the engine failure was limited.

They can’t be liable for unsavory people who pull the pan, bend the sump themselves in order to try to blame Midas and get a free engine. I know of a Subaru dealer in an economically blighted urban area that quit working on Subarus more than 15 or 20 years old due to issues like this.  I’m not saying you will do this but you have to be prepared for this reality if you think you’re going to prove this to anyone other than yourself.

Paying $3,500 on mostly gaskets and seals over a 6 week period isn't exactly looking for a free engine. It's trying to make sure this engine has has more life in it. Is it naive to expect my mechanic to tell me if they think it'd be better to put in a new engine? I guess it depends on the shop and their relationship with the community. Is it too much to ask to have them pay close attention to things like evidence of metal in the oil when doing the oil pan gasket considering they've already put in roughly 30 hours on that engine recently? I don't think it is.

The Midas crew had made mistakes in December that ran the risk of destroying my engine. It was pure luck that the timing slip didn't cause irreparable damage: something that could have been completely avoided if they had called me when they identified the need for repair. Their almost catastrophic mistake on December 23rd is why I think they could have made a mistake and damaged the sump, which led to engine failure after driving it 14 miles.

All of that said - I guess you’re in good shape because the judge will be mechanically, and Subaru, illiterate and knows none of this.  So they will just roll the dice and guess or force a settlement that’s not great for both parties probably.  

It all depends on what we find when this thing gets opened up. If they made a mistake and destroyed this engine they need to make it right. In talking with attorneys I've found out that Midas tends to settle out of court when they can to avoid having their mistakes becoming part of public record. I will likely replace the EJ25 with an EJ22.

 

[Todd Toddman]

2 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

Not knowing how often, or severely, the bad head gaskets caused engine overheating is a major question mark in the chain of events. Severe overheating leads to poor lubrication which can lead to rod or other engine bearing failure.

It's hard to tell. I replaced a lot of seals and gaskets, almost everything except the head gaskets. The previous owner could have had that replaced and got rid of it because the oil leak was still considerable. The cooling system was in good shape and never gave me issues. Then again, that could have all been replaced a while back.

[1 Lucky Texan]

severe oil leak just as bad. If it was run with minimal oil, or with the low pressure light on (which is triggered at a terrifyingly low 3 psi or something !) bearings could still have been compromised. Same is true if some issue caused excessive fuel to blow-by into the oil.....

[idosubaru]

16 hours ago, Todd Toddman said:

Paying $3,500 on mostly gaskets and seals over a 6 week period isn't exactly looking for a free engine. It's trying to make sure this engine has has more life in it. Is it naive to expect my mechanic to tell me if they think it'd be better to put in a new engine? I guess it depends on the shop and their relationship with the community. Is it too much to ask to have them pay close attention to things like evidence of metal in the oil when doing the oil pan gasket considering they've already put in roughly 30 hours on that engine recently? I don't think it is.

The Midas crew had made mistakes in December that ran the risk of destroying my engine. It was pure luck that the timing slip didn't cause irreparable damage: something that could have been completely avoided if they had called me when they identified the need for repair. Their almost catastrophic mistake on December 23rd is why I think they could have made a mistake and damaged the sump, which led to engine failure after driving it 14 miles.

Oh wow, well that certainly paints an interesting picture of events.  It sounds like they were over their head trying to diagnosis and repair something they really weren't capable of doing in the first place.  Sorry you're in that mess.

Yes, they usually will settle before going to court.  It's just not always a fun process but good grief yeah you've already spent the entire value of the car on repairs they couldnt' do and now a dead engine.  What a mess.  

[Todd Toddman]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:05 AM, idosubaru said:

1. The pan doesn’t easily drop out like it looks like.  It looks like it does but the sump won’t clear the pan baffles so the engine needs lifted.  So if they’re used to some other easy cars/truck manufacturers that just unbolt and come off they could have wrestled the pan and damaged the sump.  

Pull the pan and check the sump. If it’s damaged then they wrestled it off.  Given it a Midas that sees all makes and models it would be very easy to look at a Subaru and think it’s easy and try to rip the pan off and damage the sump. 

 

So, as I'm waiting for the new mechanic to have time to open up the oil pan to investigate, I went out to take pictures of the car and figure out exactly which transmission is in the car now. I noticed that there is a transmission leak, but there shouldn't be. In December the Rear Main Seal, Transmission Pan Gasket, and pretty much any gasket & seal visible while doing these was replaced. According to Midas, the transmission was in great shape when these repairs were done. If it had been swapped with a low-mileage transmission at some point before I bought the vehicle, this would make sense.

One thing I didn't describe about the sequence of events leading up to the engine failure was the car shifting weird going up the hill. I've been so focussed on the engine failure, even in the moment, that I didn't consider that this all might have started with the transmission. When I started up Roberts Mountain the car was abnormally gutless. I had to get over into the Truck Lane where it was continuing to lose power. Not knowing what was going on I was proceeding at a crawl to keep the RPMs from getting too high, trying to find a spot to pull over. Once I got to the top of the hill it seemed to normalize for a couple seconds, but then completely died, so I had to coast down the other side.

Is there something the Midas guys could have done (or forgot to do) when hoisting the engine to do the oil pan that could have damaged it? Could that have in turn damaged the engine? Or, am I overthinking this? Was it just the engine failing, causing it to perform poorly going up the hill? I'm shopping for replacement engines now. Spotting evidence of the transmission has a leak (that it shouldn't have) has me nervous that the engine isn't all I'll have to replace.

 

 

[idosubaru]

Hard to say. 
 

1. did this mountain incident happen before or after the work done?

2. You “coasted down the mountain”…..then what?  Did it ever drive again, even a mile? How long. What was repaired and did that fix it?

Yes trans fluid leak will make the car no move. there’s no fluid to move the trans. It’s like a water wheel in a river - if the river dries up it can’t move. 

ATF leak won’t damage engine.

A sealed pan can leak again after being resealed. The pan lip holes get concave or pan gets bent pulling it off as it sticks to the 20 year old baked on gasket/sealant. Sometimes it’s wise to just replace the pan carefully inspect and tweak the pan or apply an appropriate sealant to address pan lip inconsistencies  

If they pulled the engine or trans the ATF lines were likely disconnected and could leak if they weren’t reconnected properly  
 

The rear main seals never leak. It was the separator plate or valve or oil pan gasket. But that’s just another reason to avoid places like Midas for anything that extensive. Belts, tires battery  and an alternator - that’s fine at Midas…I guess. But the stuff we are talking about should be done ideally an experienced Subaru person, particularly a car that old. 

[Todd Toddman]

4 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Hard to say. 
 

1. did this mountain incident happen before or after the work done?

This was on the way home from the shop. I had driven 14 miles at this point.

2. You “coasted down the mountain”…..then what?  Did it ever drive again, even a mile? How long. What was repaired and did that fix it?

It would not restart. I had it towed directly back to Midas. They checked the timing belt and then drained the oil, finding chunks of bearing casing.

Yes trans fluid leak will make the car no move. there’s no fluid to move the trans. It’s like a water wheel in a river - if the river dries up it can’t move. 

ATF leak won’t damage engine.

A sealed pan can leak again after being resealed. The pan lip holes get concave or pan gets bent pulling it off as it sticks to the 20 year old baked on gasket/sealant. Sometimes it’s wise to just replace the pan carefully inspect and tweak the pan or apply an appropriate sealant to address pan lip inconsistencies  

If they pulled the engine or trans the ATF lines were likely disconnected and could leak if they weren’t reconnected properly  
 

The rear main seals never leak. It was the separator plate or valve or oil pan gasket. But that’s just another reason to avoid places like Midas for anything that extensive. Belts, tires battery  and an alternator - that’s fine at Midas…I guess. But the stuff we are talking about should be done ideally an experienced Subaru person, particularly a car that old. 

Turns out this year had a plastic separator plate, which was definitely leaking.
 

We went with Midas because of a family recommendation, and because this was our only car we appreciated that we had to wait generally no more than a day to get in and out.

It makes sense that bits of the old transmission pan gasket might be what is causing the drips. It does still have plenty of fluid in it. I’m just nervous about swapping the engine and still having serious issues. That’d be my luck with this thing.

 

[idosubaru]

It failed 14 miles after they worked on it and found bearing material - well thats certainly a story.  That sounds most likely as if they are culpable as long as some significant, ominous symptoms didn’t prompt the work to begin with.

In other words sometimes people experience a smell or hesitation and take a car to a shop, sometimes for work they were already planning on doing snd they almost don’t notice or forget the symptoms that prompted them to take it in.  So I hesitate to blame the shop when reading online commentary about a car I’ll never see written by someone who’s not mechanically inclined. I’ve even done it to myself. Have symptoms and that prompts me to do plugs/wires and go on my way. Symptoms pop up and I’m liek oh yeah I was chasing these symptoms with that already scheduled tune up i did.  And having that experience I’ve seen other local people/acquaintenances ive helped who aren’t mechanically inclined do the same thing with their shop.

No offense to you - I just don’t want to assume too much, the medium of text like this is limited and I can’t ask good follow up questions and see the car.

All that being said - the “shop messed up the oil change” scenarios ive seen usually result in catastrophic failure in a matter of miles like you experienced.

your description sounds like the engine failing not the trans. If it’s got fluid it’s fine, or as fine as we can assume that shop is capable of doing.

yes the separator plates leak all the time and should be replaced snd resealed every time there’s access.  You said “rear main seal”.  Those don’t leak. Rear separator yes.  Rear main no.