Adding Oil additives like Lucas Stop Leak or similar to a Subaru

[88SubGL]

That’s definitely a shop to avoid.

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Fuji said:

I had an interesting conversation with a mechanic this morning-- I told them my situation and that I think the timing chain cover is leaking and wanted a quote- she insisted that it most likely is not that, that it is that the heads have to be resurfaced and that they do tons of those jobs, that it is a common problem for this motor and while that very well maybe true as hard as I tried to get the timing chain cover leak she pretty much insisted that is not the problem (not seeing the car) and quoted me for the head job at $2800

She's talking about 4 cylinder engines which are totally different.  Yours is a 6 cylinder.  They are doing 4 cylinder HG's all the time and rarely see H6 engines, that's the norm and it's confusing her. 

[Fuji]

55 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

She's talking about 4 cylinder engines which are totally different.  Yours is a 6 cylinder.  They are doing 4 cylinder HG's all the time and rarely see H6 engines, that's the norm and it's confusing her. 

I cleaned the bottom of the engine where the leak is AND I checked the header contact areas on the passenger and drivers side (NOT even a hint of oil on either side). I did find the point were it is leaking along where the timing chain cover marries to the engine and interestingly it is dead nuts by a bolt and it ONLY leaks at that one point (see pic). It will be so expensive to repair that I am thinking of trying to research a resilient silicone or epoxy that might stop the leak from the outside. I know that is a long shot and sort of mickey mouse but it would save me so much money. What do you think?  Thanks

Edited February 11, 2022 by Fuji
pic upload

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, Fuji said:

I cleaned the bottom of the engine where the leak is AND I checked the header contact areas on the passenger and drivers side (NOT even a hint of oil on either side). I did find the point were it is leaking along where the timing chain cover marries to the engine and interestingly it is dead nuts by a bolt and it ONLY leaks at that one point (see pic). It will be so expensive to repair that I am thinking of trying to research a resilient silicone or epoxy that might stop the leak from the outside. I know that is a long shot and sort of mickey mouse but it would save me so much money. What do you think?  Thanks

Well done diagnosing it. There are 10 or something orings associated with the timing covers. 

If you can get it clean and compress a high quality sealant in it could definitely work as long as the oil isn’t pressurized which I think could only happen if it’s oil pump related. That seems unlikely. 

once you clean it - more residual oil that was above the cleaned area will continue to slowly creep into it and keep tainting the areas you want the sealant to bond.  That will be what prevents a good seal.

Id probably use The Right Stuff unless I heard of something better.  

[Fuji]

35 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

Well done diagnosing it. There are 10 or something orings associated with the timing covers. 

If you can get it clean and compress a high quality sealant in it could definitely work as long as the oil isn’t pressurized which I think could only happen if it’s oil pump related. That seems unlikely. 

once you clean it - more residual oil that was above the cleaned area will continue to slowly creep into it and keep tainting the areas you want the sealant to bond.  That will be what prevents a good seal.

Id probably use The Right Stuff unless I heard of something better.  

I was going to use Permatex spray seal repair but I think The Right Stuff would be fine as well. I like what you are saying about the bond being tainted by any residual oil possibly dripping down. I am going to saturate the area with rubbing alcohol and fan dry etc. There is like a pocket area where I can also shove a sponge into that should keep debris or oil from running into the bond-- hey I can only try it and hope for the best- thanks for being so helpful 

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Fuji said:

I was going to use Permatex spray seal repair but I think The Right Stuff would be fine as well. I like what you are saying about the bond being tainted by any residual oil possibly dripping down. I am going to saturate the area with rubbing alcohol and fan dry etc. There is like a pocket area where I can also shove a sponge into that should keep debris or oil from running into the bond-- hey I can only try it and hope for the best- thanks for being so helpful 

You probably already know all this but to make it clear. To help you imagine what’s happening and help plan a successful attempt:

At the atomic level the surfaces are rough, and long. We think of these as smooth short surfaces.  That’s not the case.

A “smooth surface” to us is a rough, albeit less rough, surface at the atomic level.  Think of the mating surfaces the oil is passing through like ridges on textured furniture. 

The oil is traveling from inside the timing cover, pushing or running through the mating surfaces/leak area, and dripping outside.

The width of the mating surfaces, or the distance the oil is traveling through the leak - is let’s say 1/32 of an inch. 

If we zoom in such that the leak path appears 6” wide - because at the atomic level 1/64” is a long distance. It is also rough.  When it’s cleaned from the outside the cleaners will only get to the first 1-2”.  The remaining 4-5” are rough (ridges/texture) and still holding residual oil.  After cleaning, that residual oil then gets pulled down by gravity from the uncleaned areas (which is rough/has ridges) down to the recently cleaned area.  

That will prevent proper adhesion and curing to seal the leak  

This is what makes it very difficult to clean and seal from the outside. It seems thin and smooth to us but it’s most definitely not. There’s no way to clean the entirety of the crack. 

but a few considerations:

1. clean it multiple times. 

2. Do this when it’s cold outside and the oil is thicker as long as the sealant or epoxy allows it. If working in the cold leave the sealant/expose inside st room temperature until application 

3. Spray cleaner as close up into the mating surface as possible.  Put the nozzle right on it to build pressure  

4. Be prepared for a quick, thorough application of the sealant/epoxy  

5. if any sealants are more forgiving of oil contamination - use those. 

6.  Probably not worth it or won’t want to but Changing the oil to 20w50 to may impede oil migration through the mating surfaces becaUse it’s thicker. 
 

Let us know how it goes!

[Fuji]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:33 PM, idosubaru said:

You probably already know all this but to make it clear. To help you imagine what’s happening and help plan a successful attempt:

At the atomic level the surfaces are rough, and long. We think of these as smooth short surfaces.  That’s not the case.

A “smooth surface” to us is a rough, albeit less rough, surface at the atomic level.  Think of the mating surfaces the oil is passing through like ridges on textured furniture. 

The oil is traveling from inside the timing cover, pushing or running through the mating surfaces/leak area, and dripping outside.

The width of the mating surfaces, or the distance the oil is traveling through the leak - is let’s say 1/32 of an inch. 

If we zoom in such that the leak path appears 6” wide - because at the atomic level 1/64” is a long distance. It is also rough.  When it’s cleaned from the outside the cleaners will only get to the first 1-2”.  The remaining 4-5” are rough (ridges/texture) and still holding residual oil.  After cleaning, that residual oil then gets pulled down by gravity from the uncleaned areas (which is rough/has ridges) down to the recently cleaned area.  

That will prevent proper adhesion and curing to seal the leak  

This is what makes it very difficult to clean and seal from the outside. It seems thin and smooth to us but it’s most definitely not. There’s no way to clean the entirety of the crack. 

but a few considerations:

1. clean it multiple times. 

2. Do this when it’s cold outside and the oil is thicker as long as the sealant or epoxy allows it. If working in the cold leave the sealant/expose inside st room temperature until application 

3. Spray cleaner as close up into the mating surface as possible.  Put the nozzle right on it to build pressure  

4. Be prepared for a quick, thorough application of the sealant/epoxy  

5. if any sealants are more forgiving of oil contamination - use those. 

6.  Probably not worth it or won’t want to but Changing the oil to 20w50 to may impede oil migration through the mating surfaces becaUse it’s thicker. 
 

Let us know how it goes!

I tried to clean it as best I could using alcohol and then I layered on 5 coats. Per the instructions, I let the engine warm up a bit. It is still leaking about the same like the sealant didn't do a damn thing. I wouldn't mind trying again. I thought about the thicker oil too but I wonder if that could cause lubrication issues. By the way, I finally went to a good mechanic who I have used in the past and they will be diagnosing the leak on Thursday. He says if it is an just an outer seal leak that the cost would be $550 but if it is an inner seal leak it will be $750. He says that a lot of people would go ahead and order a timing belt kit to replace the tensioner, chain and any internal oil sensors if there are any but that the quality of the chain and tensioner will be inspected at that time. He says doing that might add an additional $400. I don't feel like soaking a lot of money into the Subaru but then again if I get a few more years out of it and have no car payment whatsoever I should be jumping up and down (I suppose) from happiness. 

 

[idosubaru]

1 minute ago, Fuji said:

I tried to clean it as best I could using alcohol and then I layered on 5 coats. Per the instructions, I let the engine warm up a bit. It is still leaking about the same like the sealant didn't do a damn thing. I wouldn't mind trying again. I thought about the thicker oil too but I wonder if that could cause lubrication issues. By the way, I finally went to a good mechanic who I have used in the past and they will be diagnosing the leak on Thursday. He says if it is an just an outer seal leak that the cost would be $550 but if it is an inner seal leak it will be $750. He says that a lot of people would go ahead and order a timing belt kit to replace the tensioner, chain and any internal oil sensors if there are any but that the quality of the chain and tensioner will be inspected at that time. He says doing that might add an additional $400. I don't feel like soaking a lot of money into the Subaru but then again if I get a few more years out of it and have no car payment whatsoever I should be jumping up and down (I suppose) from happiness. 

 

If you correctly placed the sealant - it leaked because of the issue I outlined in detail earlier.  The second you're done cleaning it - oil inside the chain cover and just past where the cleaning agents reached -  started to seep back into the crack, preventing proper adhesion of whatever you stuff up in there. It's like turning an oil bottle upside - it just continually drips for a really long time - that's what's happening inside the pathway of the leak - it just keeps coming.

Your best chance might be to clean, then wait as long as you can to clean again, then wait as long as you can to clean again....and repeat until maybe no more oil is creeping down the pathway of the crack when you go to seal it. But that's highly inconvenient and still might not work - we dont' know the source of the leak internally and how much oil is pooled up there to keep supplying the leak. 

Thicker oil won't hurt the engine at all - but it's not going to help either so just skip that. 

It doesn't have timing belts
Do not replace the chains or guides or tensioners
There are no sensors related to the covers - nothing to replace there. 

The only thing to consider replacing is the water pump - buy one from Subaru, not aftermarket. That, and the timing cover origns/sealant should be the only costs here. 

[Fuji]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

If you correctly placed the sealant - it leaked because of the issue I outlined in detail earlier.  The second you're done cleaning it - oil inside the chain cover and just past where the cleaning agents reached -  started to seep back into the crack, preventing proper adhesion of whatever you stuff up in there. It's like turning an oil bottle upside - it just continually drips for a really long time - that's what's happening inside the pathway of the leak - it just keeps coming.

Your best chance might be to clean, then wait as long as you can to clean again, then wait as long as you can to clean again....and repeat until maybe no more oil is creeping down the pathway of the crack when you go to seal it. But that's highly inconvenient and still might not work - we dont' know the source of the leak internally and how much oil is pooled up there to keep supplying the leak. 

Thicker oil won't hurt the engine at all - but it's not going to help either so just skip that. 

It doesn't have timing belts
Do not replace the chains or guides or tensioners
There are no sensors related to the covers - nothing to replace there. 

The only thing to consider replacing is the water pump - buy one from Subaru, not aftermarket. That, and the timing cover origns/sealant should be the only costs here. 

Yeah the "belt" was an error, I knew it was chain driven. Thanks for the info- I think that the water pump is a smart move considering. What do you think the guy was referring to when he said inner seal?? 

[idosubaru]

16 hours ago, Fuji said:

Yeah the "belt" was an error, I knew it was chain driven. Thanks for the info- I think that the water pump is a smart move considering. What do you think the guy was referring to when he said inner seal?? 

"belt" or "chain" is easily interchanged for expediency sometimes, but if it means this shop isn't familiar with Subaru H6's then it might mean they're also likely to replace tensioners or chains, both of which are pointless to replace on that specific engine.  

Given that price difference he almost certainly means the inner timing cover seal between it and the block.  It's an 11 mile long bead of sealant from a tube. lol

[Fuji]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

"belt" or "chain" is easily interchanged for expediency sometimes, but if it means this shop isn't familiar with Subaru H6's then it might mean they're also likely to replace tensioners or chains, both of which are pointless to replace on that specific engine.  

Given that price difference he almost certainly means the inner timing cover seal between it and the block.  It's an 11 mile long bead of sealant from a tube. lol

Well to be fair, they didn't suggest it had a belt. I wouldn't say they are Subaru experts but have certainly worked on a fair share of them because over 50% of the people up here (I live in the California Mountains) seem to have them, probably even closer to 60%. I will certainly be monitoring them and I get a sense that they are good people in terms of not doing more than they have to do. Again, thanks for all your help / suggestions etc. 

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Fuji said:

Well to be fair, they didn't suggest it had a belt. I wouldn't say they are Subaru experts but have certainly worked on a fair share of them because over 50% of the people up here (I live in the California Mountains) seem to have them, probably even closer to 60%. I will certainly be monitoring them and I get a sense that they are good people in terms of not doing more than they have to do. Again, thanks for all your help / suggestions etc. 

sure thing. I get that. I’m not questioning them.  when we are limited by typing and third party communication, clarity can help work out some kinks on limited platforms like this. 

[Fuji]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, idosubaru said:

sure thing. I get that. I’m not questioning them.  when we are limited by typing and third party communication, clarity can help work out some kinks on limited platforms like this. 

So I brought the car to a local mechanic I trust. I only have the one car so I had to drop it off and walk the 2 miles home. They think it is just the front seal of the timing chain cover and if it is only that and not the rear (which they tell me they will only know once the cover is off) -- just the front fix will be about $350 which seems to be fair to me. They told me they were hoping to possibly have the cover off yesterday. He calls me later in the day to apologize that they could not get to it because the two cars they were working on are taking longer and one mechanic is out sick. He said it looks like they will not get to it until next Tuesday. I get it. I live in a mountain community and all the mechanics are constantly busy. 

So here is my problem, I have to go to my grandson's 4 year old birthday. Gotta go. Enterprise and Budget are either out of cars in my area or super expensive right now and I would have to drive down the mountain anyway to go rent something. The party is 73 miles away. I don't mind dropping oil in the car to get there (and yes it does bother me that I am littering oil) but do you think this is a possible fire hazard. I wouldn't think so since the drip is literally at the bottom of the motor. The drips can be blown on the exhaust pipes and cats. I thought about even taking hose clamps and attaching a metal funnel (with a rubber hose) to wick or guide the dripping further down to the ground. Thought about mickey mousing a catch cup.  

Is this crazy??? ha

[idosubaru]

3 hours ago, Fuji said:

So I brought the car to a local mechanic I trust. I only have the one car so I had to drop it off and walk the 2 miles home. They think it is just the front seal of the timing chain cover and if it is only that and not the rear (which they tell me they will only know once the cover is off) -- just the front fix will be about $350 which seems to be fair to me. They told me they were hoping to possibly have the cover off yesterday. He calls me later in the day to apologize that they could not get to it because the two cars they were working on are taking longer and one mechanic is out sick. He said it looks like they will not get to it until next Tuesday. I get it. I live in a mountain community and all the mechanics are constantly busy. 

So here is my problem, I have to go to my grandson's 4 year old birthday. Gotta go. Enterprise and Budget are either out of cars in my area or super expensive right now and I would have to drive down the mountain anyway to go rent something. The party is 73 miles away. I don't mind dropping oil in the car to get there (and yes it does bother me that I am littering oil) but do you think this is a possible fire hazard. I wouldn't think so since the drip is literally at the bottom of the motor. The drips can be blown on the exhaust pipes and cats. I thought about even taking hose clamps and attaching a metal funnel (with a rubber hose) to wick or guide the dripping further down to the ground. Thought about mickey mousing a catch cup.  

Is this crazy??? ha

You drove it some before taking it in without a fire. I’ve seen copious oil leaks and it’s usually a non issue.  Some people call it rust prevention. 

Engine fires aren’t rare - ask a fire department if you know anyone who works there.  In cities with lots of people the fire departments are rather humbug about car fires. 

if it starts smoking bad don’t pop the hood - that greatly increases air flow to the fire. 

[Fuji]

41 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

You drove it some before taking it in without a fire. I’ve seen copious oil leaks and it’s usually a non issue.  Some people call it rust prevention. 

Engine fires aren’t rare - ask a fire department if you know anyone who works there.  In cities with lots of people the fire departments are rather humbug about car fires. 

if it starts smoking bad don’t pop the hood - that greatly increases air flow to the fire. 

yeah and I keep a fire extinguisher in the car. I have done this with all cars since I had an engine fire in a 72 PS 1800 Volvo-- UPDATE: my mechanic's boss saw a post on a Facebook page asking for car rentals places and they felt bad (small mountain community) and called me to say that the boss and him were personally diving in to the motor (that was at 9:20am) to try to get it done for me. I was pretty blown away, it has been three hours without a follow up call so I am pretty sure they did not find another issue and I have a feeling I will get the car back today. 

thanks man

[el_freddo]

That’s epic about the update! If they pull it off those mechanics are ones to keep returning to! 

That’s the equivalent of our country hospitality I’d say. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[1 Lucky Texan]

on the fire thing, I have concerns about driving my WRX in the shop 40 minutes away. It is smoking quite a bit. And kinda wondering if 'latent heat' when I park could be the most dangerous time?

and, if I take an extinguisher, how do I use it and hold the hood up with flames in my face? lol

[idosubaru]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:42 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

on the fire thing, I have concerns about driving my WRX in the shop 40 minutes away. It is smoking quite a bit. And kinda wondering if 'latent heat' when I park could be the most dangerous time?

and, if I take an extinguisher, how do I use it and hold the hood up with flames in my face? lol

I don’t know how true it is but fire departments have told me never to open a hood. 
 

what I don’t understand is how many Subarus have oil all under them and never catch fire. It’s not random - there has to be some causation.

The ratio of “Subarus that had an engine fire” to “number of subarus with copious oil leaks” is so small I have to believe it’s rare.  If we reduce that by the fact that some of those are pure user error like bad wiring or battery antics, or they have no heat shields remaining (assuming oil contacting the 1,000 degree headers matters) then it’s even smaller.

Edited February 20, 2022 by idosubaru

[Fuji]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:19 PM, el_freddo said:

That’s epic about the update! If they pull it off those mechanics are ones to keep returning to! 

That’s the equivalent of our country hospitality I’d say. 

Cheers 

Bennie

I felt the same thing but it turned out that I should of taken my damn car! My wife and I ended up missing my grandson's 4th birthday party and it really bummed me out badly. Up where I live there are no Lifes or Uber or even many bus routes to get down to the flatland to rent a car. MY RATIONAL mind should of said, to keep the car but I got pulled into the mechanics enthusiasm. I don't fault them, it was my decision in the end, I fault myself. Spoke to them today and they are now telling me that the back seal needs to be done and because of that it is smart to change the timing chain and tensioner because the car has 173K miles-- this is going to end up being an expensive fix considering the age of the car and how much it is worth. That being said, the car was purchased for cash 4 and a half years ago so I suppose I shouldn't complain. Definitely going to keep a look out for an older more fuel efficient second car. This is not a good place to be without wheels. 

[el_freddo]

Ah that sucks mate! 

I didn’t think it was worth swapping out the chain, tensioner and guides I would look at but not the chain. But that’s without looking at it too.

Cheers 

Bennie

[Fuji]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, idosubaru said:

sure thing. I get that. I’m not questioning them.  when we are limited by typing and third party communication, clarity can help work out some kinks on limited platforms like this. 

You've been so helpful that I wanted to sort of update you on this prolonged experience. I got a call from the mechanic and in his opinion (and he mentioned that he consulted with Subaru) the car needs a front seal replacement, a back seal replacement, oil pump is leaking some, the tensioner and chain should be replaced and the water pump and numerous other seals etc to a grand total tune of $2900 - I almost had a feeling that my mechanic while trying to do due diligence went down a rabbit hole of what should be done over what needs to be done. I certainly feel uncomfortable about spending that much when the car is probably only worth 4K.  OH and he also cautioned me that there might be something wrong with the transmission because when they started the car on the rack in park one of the tires turned super slowly. I don't know what that is all about but I told him that since they are just at the point of having the cover off that I felt it prudent to just clean up the old seal, re-seal and hopefully that will for the most part stop the dripping oil leak. 

I don't know, man, I can afford the $350 for resealing the timing chain cover-- so I think that is going to be my best course of action here. I paid cash for the car 4.5 years ago due to replacing a car that was destroyed in a horrible crash in Georgia when an 89 year old woman crossed over the line on a two lane highway and hit my wife. 

Time to save my pennies and look for a suitable replacement- been eyeing a Crosstek or a Mazda Cx-3.

Cheers 

[idosubaru]

4 minutes ago, Fuji said:

You've been so helpful that I wanted to sort of update you on this prolonged experience. I got a call from the mechanic and in his opinion (and he mentioned that he consulted with Subaru) the car needs a front seal replacement, a back seal replacement, oil pump is leaking some, the tensioner and chain should be replaced and the water pump and numerous other seals etc to a grand total tune of $2900 - I almost had a feeling that my mechanic while trying to do due diligence went down a rabbit hole of what should be done over what needs to be done. I certainly feel uncomfortable about spending that much when the car is probably only worth 4K.  OH and he also cautioned me that there might be something wrong with the transmission because when they started the car on the rack in park one of the tires turned super slowly. I don't know what that is all about but I told him that since they are just at the point of having the cover off that I felt it prudent to just clean up the old seal, re-seal and hopefully that will for the most part stop the dripping oil leak. 

I don't know, man, I can afford the $350 for resealing the timing chain cover-- so I think that is going to be my best course of action here. I paid cash for the car 4.5 years ago due to replacing a car that was destroyed in a horrible crash in Georgia when an 89 year old woman crossed over the line on a two lane highway and hit my wife. 

Time to save my pennies and look for a suitable replacement- been eyeing a Crosstek or a Mazda Cx-3.

Cheers 

Oh wow sorry to hear that. I hope your wife and the other parties involved fared okay in that accident sounds bad!?

I don’t know what they were doing exactly but The tire spinning is probably benign. Awd cars do it all the time depending on any number of factors - how and why it’s lifted started in gear brakes etc.

Yes the mechanic is replacing too much but I wouldn’t necessarily fault him, he’s just not overly familiar with that engine and he’s in way more trouble if he doesn’t replace something and it back fires than simply replacing more than necessary. I’d fault the dealer for not being a little more mechanically savvy for of up-selling so many parts.

If you end up selling yours and it’s rust free let me (or the board) know how much you want for it. 

[Fuji]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

Oh wow sorry to hear that. I hope your wife and the other parties involved fared okay in that accident sounds bad!?

I don’t know what they were doing exactly but The tire spinning is probably benign. Awd cars do it all the time depending on any number of factors - how and why it’s lifted started in gear brakes etc.

Yes the mechanic is replacing too much but I wouldn’t necessarily fault him, he’s just not overly familiar with that engine and he’s in way more trouble if he doesn’t replace something and it back fires than simply replacing more than necessary. I’d fault the dealer for not being a little more mechanically savvy for of up-selling so many parts.

If you end up selling yours and it’s rust free let me (or the board) know how much you want for it. 

Thanks for your kind words- The Saturn had side curtain air bags and luckily my wife was not hurt more severely but the accident did result in her having to have plates in her neck and to this day she has to take medication for the nerve pain. I am not sure what happened to the woman who hit her but I do know she was not killed. She spun out and went into a shallow ravine and hit a tree (A Rav 4). My wife spun out into the opposing traffic lane where the car ended up and luckily she was not struck. If she had been it would of been a lot worse. She was removed from the vehicle with the jaws of life. Worse thing that has ever happened to us. 

On the car- I realize I am taking a gamble doing the minimum but I have never had 1) an oil pressure light come on 2) check engine lights 3) no timing chain shudder or noise etc. I will pick up the car tomorrow and hopefully the major oil slick will be no more!

[1 Lucky Texan]

would a JDM engine swap be worthwhile here?

[el_freddo]

6 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

would a JDM engine swap be worthwhile here?

I was wondering this too. But I’d say all in on the purchase of the JDM engine then labour to swap it would be much much more than fixing the seal and chains etc that are being done now. 

Cheers 

Bennie