4" SJR lift on Loyale, CV annihilation

[diegotheslinger]

Hello all, long time lurker here. Was wondering if any with suspension experience could give me some pointers and a look over on my lift. 

Car is an EJ22 swapped 1992 Loyale with the 4" lift that SJR offers. Got it on last summer for the Oregon Gambler500.  Did a test drive and blew inner passenger side CV boot.  Figured it was from heat of exaust so made a heatshield and threw another one on.  New one seemed to be holding so started heading from Seattle to central Oregon, blew through four more on way down (OEM and REMANNED)..... really wanted to go so just beat the axle off of two of the blown ones and and reinstalled in hub.  Put it in 4WD and did the rest of it with just my rear wheel drive.  Drove it for a few months like that till winter. 

The inner CV definitely was getting hot as hell, then blowing boot out.  If i remember correctly, had some shaking as well and tire shook when turning sharply.  Both sides blew out.

I'm going to install my last set of CVs tomorrow, and see how everything looks.  

Maybe get another set of eyes on the lift installation and see if anything looks off?  Worried maybe got stut blocks switched.  Trying to rule stuff out. 

Anything to look out for?  Has new ball joint,tie rod ends, engine mounts, tranny mounts.  Maybe tranny and engine not seated well?  There is a bit of space on the tranny cross member that I had to use a spacer for. 

 

Thanks, these forums have helped alot with the project. 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

These vehicles are not designed for this type of modification. Subaru CV's are weak to begin with and really don't do well with lifting at all. 

This is the same scenario that put every one of us old timers off from the lifted off-road scene with Subaru's. It's just stupid - you have to make way too many compromises and the already pathetic gearing gets worse if you run decently sized tires. 

You have two choices:

1. Build a complete subframe that allows you to run a Nissan/Suzuki transfer case behind the transmission so you can put a rear diff in the front and run the axles at a greatly reduced angle. The axles on my 86 hatch with an 8" lift and a Nissan T-case run nearly flat and generally aren't a problem if you wheel carefully with it. It has other issues with 30" tires such as very unreliable power steering, but this resolves the axle issues. Still can't get any parts for the thing so it's a lawn ornament in front of my shop that occasionally is rented by a film production company. 

2. Go to solid axles - AKA buy an old Toyota or a Chevy. For wheeling I currently rock a K5 Jimmy on 35's. 

Third option that's sort of in-between is to go to an EJ chassis and keep it REAL MILD. Like an early Forester with a 2" lift. And GET AN AUTOMATIC. The torque converter is all the low range you need.

GD

[el_freddo]

How much in the strut blocks and the engine crossmember blocks? And are you running a standard spring or a lifted spring? 

If you’ve got 3 inch on the engine crossmember and 4 inch on the strut tops you’ve already got extra angle on your CVs. If you then went with lifted springs they can add another inch into the entire setup and push the CVs to their extreme limit. 

Typically I’ve found that a matching lift on the strut and the engine crossmember with lifted springs works well. I don’t chew through CV shafts or boots and I’m on 27 inch tyres. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[diegotheslinger]

Yeah, I know its never going to be a crawler, but I have a blast taking it out to dunes and the forest roads.   Cool looking body, light, and have taken it up some stuff that surprised me.  Just wanted bit more clearance, and this first vehicle i've ever done modifications to.   Would eventually like to go to smaller solid axle truck eventually, but still want to finish this up.

 

Yep, its 3" on crossmember and 4" on the strut block.  Its the standard springs for now and on 27": tires. 

Just trying to figure out what i've done wrong, cause I've heard of that same setup working alright for alot of people. They are blowing after like 30 miles of easy highway miles.  Thats with some junkyard OEM ones and new remanufactured. 

 

I've gotten really fast at changing them out on the side of the road tho. 

Just looking to see if it generally looks correct, I'm a newb.

Going to put new CVs on today, start trying to whats causing them to bind up.  I'll post up if I find anything out.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by diegotheslinger

[idosubaru]

that’s a lot of issues. Sounds like something is off or you had bad axle luck  which isn’t that unlikely as you’ll see  

check that your front strut top spacers are properly clocked. They install rotated one way only. 

check engine and trans mounts for slop

add an extra 1/2” spacers.

call Scott and ask. I’ve always found Scott reasonable to talk to.
 

1. CVs are trash. I hear you said you tried OEM but I have my doubts on how rigorous that assessment is and maybe they were driven horrendously without boots at some point in their life or compromised or 250,000 miles like many used Subaru parts now from the 80s. 

look up all the people blowing axles on here and discussing which aftermarket trash or new  brand garbage is going to be the next magic unicorn for Subarus. It’s not going to happen. Including the epic thread of me telling folks the HD trac motive or whatever garbage had zero chance of being worth the trial.  Yep ended up an epic waste of time. Wash rinse repeat. Avoid aftermarket like the plague. No matter what anecdotal report you hear or add you read   They suck for Subarus. I won’t even install them on *non-lifted* Subarus      They’re that bad.

It’s not going to happen. You need to go buy 5 OEM axles. 

Then regrease them with quality proper amount of grease and new boots. 

maybe you’ll loose one or two due to high miles or previous grit exposure. But you’ll end up with 3 or so that perform well enough you’re playing more than working.

ive busted boots with my 2”+ lift with no spacers at 10,000 ft in colorado and drove 2,000 miles home. They were OEM axles with new joints that vibrated like crazy the whole way home my rear view mirror was barely usable it was shaking so bad. 

what’s better - I cleaned and greasers and rebooted them and still run them and one is on another members car on this forum right now and has been for 8 years after that epic trashing. Marshall I’m colored axles FTW.

reread everything I just wrote. Aftermarket is trash.

maybe at 30+ years old they’re impossible to find but it’s worth trying.

[GeneralDisorder]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

maybe at 30+ years old they’re impossible to find but it’s worth trying.

Ding, ding, ding! 

Exactly. It's an impossible situation. A new OEM axle has a chance with that much lift to live a 25% lifespan. Aftermarket has NO chance. And OEM hasn't been produced in 20 years or more. Good luck finding any. 

These chassis are NOT viable. I keep telling people that.... they don't listen and tow their junk to my shop anyway so I just started taking their money. LOTS of it to make something that works. 

GD

[idosubaru]

Other option is 5 lug conversion so you can readily buy 5 OEM EJ axles. 

[GeneralDisorder]

8 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Other option is 5 lug conversion so you can readily buy 5 OEM EJ axles. 

Nope. All OEM axles through 2004 are now discontinued and NLA. 2005+ use bolt-in wheel bearing/hub assemblies and are also stub-in on the transmission side so are entirely incompatible. 

Used OEM EJ axles are still out there of course. But are declining in number and condition. 

There's a *slight* possibility that Baja axles might still be available. Not sure. They held onto the pre-05 design till end of production. 

GD

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by GeneralDisorder

[idosubaru]

9 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Nope. All OEM axles through 2004 are now discontinued and NLA. 

 

‘Nope’ back at you! I didnt say *new* EJ!   I said buy 5 of them - that would be a funny suggestion for new.

OEM used arent hard for an individual to find.  But it does take effort and won’t be worth it for hobby trail beaters or those needing a consistent supply  

Like you, I wouldn’t use a Subaru for off-road trail play, lift is for only for practical reasons on mine. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by idosubaru

[czny]

I added a 1" spacer to the crossmember lift and lengthened the steering coupler enough to work with the lift change. 4" strut lift + 4" crossmember lift. Improved axle angles and much fewer axle re-boots. There are  some old threads about this.

IIRC, there were also suggestions that 90's lego OB crossmember spacers and hardware could be used.

Hard to find the old threads anymore. Wayback machine thread searches are in your future.

Avoid import axles like the plague. Re-boot some OEM used axles for spares.

 

 

 

 

[diegotheslinger]

Thanks for suggestions everyone, going to mess around this weekend with it. Theres two new gls up north of me in the junkyard going to see if I find anything useful. Little bit depressing, but I'll be on the hunt for some used OEMs. Like the idea of maybe spacing the crossmember up and see how that works out.  In any event I'll post back with some info and pictures when something comes of it.  Thought I just had something terribly wrong with the lift. 

Not even against taking lift off, was doing great in dunes and light trails up at walker valley on snow tires.  Just have alot of hits to oil pan and underside.

[Numbchux]

From the pictures, it looks correctly installed. I drove thousands of miles in my '88 with similar geometry (not an EJ swap, though). Is your pitch stopper hooked up? I'm curious about "There is a bit of space on the tranny cross member that I had to use a spacer for."

[el_freddo]

EJ conversion, lift and no pitch stopper rod will almost instantly kill CVs as the engine and gearbox move around. It’s surprising what that little rod does! 

Either fit the EJ pitch stopper rod mount to the gearbox and adapt an EJ unit to your setup (might need to lengthen the EJ stopper rod and bend it slightly to fit). Or somehow adapt the EA stopper rod to the EJ setup. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[subaru1988]

On 2/27/2022 at 1:56 PM, diegotheslinger said:

I've gotten really fast at changing them out on the side of the road tho. 

 

Do you carry a breaker bar and torque wrench with your for the axle nuts? How do you get all the details down to do the job right on the side of the road? You must have figured out a short cut to get access to the axle to get it out? Serious question here as I have a worn boots on mine that are going to need replaced at some point. I can't say I'd be willing to attempt it on the roadside, though :p

[Ionstorm66]

42 minutes ago, subaru1988 said:

Do you carry a breaker bar and torque wrench with your for the axle nuts? How do you get all the details down to do the job right on the side of the road? You must have figured out a short cut to get access to the axle to get it out? Serious question here as I have a worn boots on mine that are going to need replaced at some point. I can't say I'd be willing to attempt it on the roadside, though :p

I keep the socket and my impact.

[Ionstorm66]

Just now, Ionstorm66 said:

I keep the socket and my impact. Drop the bottom ball joint, knock out the pin on the trans, pull the trans side off first, then pull it out of the hub.

 

[el_freddo]

36mm socket and a 3/4 inch drive breaker bar. 

Torque? Just jump on the breaker bar two or three times, then more to line up a split pin hole. 

To remove the shaft you need to drop the ball joint out the bottom of the knuckle/hub assembly, then you can pull the shaft off the diff stub axle and push/hammer the shaft out through the bearings. 

I’ve done it while out 4wdn in the bush to replace a busted CV boot. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

Do you carry a breaker bar and torque wrench with your for the axle nuts? How do you get all the details down to do the job right on the side of the road? You must have figured out a short cut to get access to the axle to get it out? Serious question here as I have a worn boots on mine that are going to need replaced at some point. I can't say I'd be willing to attempt it on the roadside, though :p

Get an FSM. The XT FSM is the same as an EA82 in terms of axles and was widely available free online. Try to find it but if not I can get it to you. PM me. 

It’s straight forward and not many fasteners or parts.  The tricky parts are:

Rust - if it’s rusty, ball joints are nightmarish and axle shaft sticks in knuckle.

The boot replacement is a greasy mess. Have lots of shop towels.

Other than that it’s really easy. Also make sure you line the splines up the right way - they only have one orientation, not two. There’s a through hole on the axle and stub that need to line up and at first they appear to just like ho either way. But they can be 180 Degrees off.  Easy but if you don’t know to look it confused people. 

I’ve pulled one on the side of the road an hour from home.  1-2 hours without tools in a snow storm at dark. Knocked out pin with whatever I could find. then beat the snot out of the outer joint to pull the shaft and leave the outer joint in the bearings so I could drive home in 2WD without that axle installed. It was a brand new, about 100 miles, aftermarket axle that had failed. I forget which side failed, but that aided removal. 

[subaru1988]

On 3/6/2022 at 2:02 PM, Ionstorm66 said:

----------impact

Any thoughts on which impact is best for this?

On 3/6/2022 at 7:34 PM, el_freddo said:

36mm socket and a 3/4 inch drive breaker bar. 

Torque? Just jump on the breaker bar two or three times, then more to line up a split pin hole. 

To remove the shaft you need to drop the ball joint out the bottom of the knuckle/hub assembly, then you can pull the shaft off the diff stub axle and push/hammer the shaft out through the bearings. 

I’ve done it while out 4wdn in the bush to replace a busted CV boot. 

Cheers 

Bennie

So you use a 3/4 breaker bar. I can see why. I had to take the axle nut off one time to swap out a rotor, and I broke a 1/2 inch breaker bar. I couldn't move the damn nut and had to drive it to a local place so they could get it off. As a matter of fact, they put it on so stinking tight. What do you use to remove move the ball joint out of the knuckle? Is a crow bar enough?

23 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Get an FSM. The XT FSM is the same as an EA82 in terms of axles and was widely available free online. Try to find it but if not I can get it to you. PM me. 

It’s straight forward and not many fasteners or parts.  The tricky parts are:

Rust - if it’s rusty, ball joints are nightmarish and axle shaft sticks in knuckle.

The boot replacement is a greasy mess. Have lots of shop towels.

Other than that it’s really easy. Also make sure you line the splines up the right way - they only have one orientation, not two. There’s a through hole on the axle and stub that need to line up and at first they appear to just like ho either way. But they can be 180 Degrees off.  Easy but if you don’t know to look it confused people. 

I’ve pulled one on the side of the road an hour from home.  1-2 hours without tools in a snow storm at dark. Knocked out pin with whatever I could find. then beat the snot out of the outer joint to pull the shaft and leave the outer joint in the bearings so I could drive home in 2WD without that axle installed. It was a brand new, about 100 miles, aftermarket axle that had failed. I forget which side failed, but that aided removal. 

Thanks for the tips! I do have the XT FSM. I don't think I have "rust" that will be a nightmare, but I will definitely use lots of penetrating oil. I also thought about swapping ball joints when I have it all apart. I've been using the grease needle sort of band aid fix as you suggested awhile back, and it works pretty good. Seeing this guy's post kinda made me wonder if I was making a little too much out of this job when people are swapping these axles on the side of a road with hand tools.

This hole deal is something new to me. Is there a chamfered hole or something on one side? Could I see it on the old axle and mark it on the new axle? I would assume the axle retaining pin is tapered.

Not trying to hijack the OP's post here. I just read what he said about doing this on the side of the road, and thought I'd ask how he was getting it done.

Edited March 8, 2022 by subaru1988

[DaveT]

The pin that holds the axle on the transmission is a straight roll pin.  2 things get people in trouble  - using a drift that is too small, and it gets into the hollow center of the roll pin, and jams.   The other is not noticing the splines when reassembling.  One hole has a peak, the othe side has a valley.  It's almost but not quite 180 degrees off if you get it backwards.   Try to drive the pin inot the offset holes makes for a bad time.  

The bug nut should not be as tight as you describe....  yes 3/4" breaker bar.  For.the first time removal,  sometimes need a 2.to.3 foot extender on the handle...  reassemble with anti seize.   The 140 /150.ftlb is dry tourque,  so go little lighter with anti seize.   I also use anti seize on the ball joint mating surfaces.   Makes any future work way easier. 

 

[idosubaru]

10 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

Any thoughts on which impact is best for this?

So you use a 3/4 breaker bar. I can see why. I had to take the axle nut off one time to swap out a rotor, and I broke a 1/2 inch breaker bar. I couldn't move the damn nut and had to drive it to a local place so they could get it off. As a matter of fact, they put it on so stinking tight. What do you use to remove move the ball joint out of the knuckle? Is a crow bar enough?

Thanks for the tips! I do have the XT FSM. I don't think I have "rust" that will be a nightmare, but I will definitely use lots of penetrating oil. I also thought about swapping ball joints when I have it all apart. I've been using the grease needle sort of band aid fix as you suggested awhile back, and it works pretty good. Seeing this guy's post kinda made me wonder if I was making a little too much out of this job when people are swapping these axles on the side of a road with hand tools.

This hole deal is something new to me. Is there a chamfered hole or something on one side? Could I see it on the old axle and mark it on the new axle? I would assume the axle retaining pin is tapered.

Not trying to hijack the OP's post here. I just read what he said about doing this on the side of the road, and thought I'd ask how he was getting it done.

1,000 ft-lb 3/4" impact gun.  Or a 3 foot pipe over the handle of a 3/4" socket wrench.  Axle nuts routinely break generic/average 1/2" breakers/sockets all the time. 

Ball joints vary wiidly based on corrosion and time in situ. Yes a crow bar "is enough" if yours isn't bad. Have the ball joints ever been apart before in the past?  If not they've sat there for decades. 

People here do it on the side of the road because they've probably done a bunch and often times have already had that axle/knuckle apart in the last couple of years so removal is easy before age/corrosion set in. A first timer with even minor corrosion/rust issues has zero chance of getting this done without a headache so you're right to ask. 

just look inside the axle hole and the stubby shaft hole.  on one side of the axle *the VALLEY of the splined shaft will be in the center*, on the other side the TOP RIDGE will be in the center.  Line it up appropriately.  It's not hard, just need to know to look for it.  

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by idosubaru

[Ionstorm66]

The nuts get rusted on, same with the washer and cone. Once you have them off once, clean and grease it all. Especially the spines! You should only be torquing to ~150 lbf-ft/200 nm, so a good 1/2 breaker bar will bust them off the second time.

 

Also re-check the torque after a few miles, if they keep getting loose, it's likely the splines are dirty.

I always remove them and re torque with torque wrench when I get home after a field repair.

[subaru1988]

On 3/8/2022 at 6:03 AM, DaveT said:

The pin that holds the axle on the transmission is a straight roll pin.  2 things get people in trouble  - using a drift that is too small, and it gets into the hollow center of the roll pin, and jams.   The other is not noticing the splines when reassembling.  One hole has a peak, the othe side has a valley.  It's almost but not quite 180 degrees off if you get it backwards.   Try to drive the pin inot the offset holes makes for a bad time.  

The bug nut should not be as tight as you describe....  yes 3/4" breaker bar.  For.the first time removal,  sometimes need a 2.to.3 foot extender on the handle...  reassemble with anti seize.   The 140 /150.ftlb is dry tourque,  so go little lighter with anti seize.   I also use anti seize on the ball joint mating surfaces.   Makes any future work way easier. 

 

I'm pretty sure I have a drift size that is one that was suggested on some post on this site. So the holes are slightly offset if you do it wrong..? Would it be wise to put something smaller through the hole first to make sure it's right before sticking the retaining pin in? This is the part that gives me pause because I remember reading a post on here where someone had the whole shebang stuck to the tranny with really no way of getting it off! Great idea about the anti-seize for nut and joints, and like you said, maybe I can back off the torque a tad when I use it.

On 3/8/2022 at 6:06 AM, idosubaru said:

1,000 ft-lb 3/4" impact gun.  Or a 3 foot pipe over the handle of a 3/4" socket wrench.  Axle nuts routinely break generic/average 1/2" breakers/sockets all the time. 

Ball joints vary wiidly based on corrosion and time in situ. Yes a crow bar "is enough" if yours isn't bad. Have the ball joints ever been apart before in the past?  If not they've sat there for decades. 

People here do it on the side of the road because they've probably done a bunch and often times have already had that axle/knuckle apart in the last couple of years so removal is easy before age/corrosion set in. A first timer with even minor corrosion/rust issues has zero chance of getting this done without a headache so you're right to ask. 

just look inside the axle hole and the stubby shaft hole.  on one side of the axle *the VALLEY of the splined shaft will be in the center*, on the other side the TOP RIDGE will be in the center.  Line it up appropriately.  It's not hard, just need to know to look for it.  

 

Ball joints have pried out of the control arm many times, and the boots show it, which is why I might change them out. I think the car has had 3 pairs of axles in it. What I actually meant was is a crowbar enough to pry the threaded end of the ball joint out of the control arm? Good point about having it apart more recently than 15 years makes it easier to take it apart. I guess what I can do is mark the axle hole position with some paint, check the VALLEY and RIDGE position, and make sure it's right. Sounds to me like the idea is to key the axle to the shaft using a spline? Thanks to your description and DaveT, I know exactly what to look for now.

On 3/8/2022 at 11:34 AM, Ionstorm66 said:

The nuts get rusted on, same with the washer and cone. Once you have them off once, clean and grease it all. Especially the spines! You should only be torquing to ~150 lbf-ft/200 nm, so a good 1/2 breaker bar will bust them off the second time.

Also re-check the torque after a few miles, if they keep getting loose, it's likely the splines are dirty.

I always remove them and re torque with torque wrench when I get home after a field repair.

This is interesting, because the last time an axle was done on the car, it kept loosening up. I'll bet the shop that did it last didn't bother cleaning the splines. What I'll do is clean all the splines with brake cleaner, and grease them all.

Anyone have any input on whether axles that click only when turning can just be repacked and rebooted? Mine have at least 80K on them, so they must be 1/2 way decent even though they aren't OEM.

Thanks so much for all the great tips! Glad the OP posted this thread even though my car is bone stock so I don't have the added component of working around mods. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

7 hours ago, subaru1988 said:

I'm pretty sure I have a drift size that is one that was suggested on some post on this site. So the holes are slightly offset if you do it wrong..? Would it be wise to put something smaller through the hole first to make sure it's right before sticking the retaining pin in? This is the part that gives me pause because I remember reading a post on here where someone had the whole shebang stuck to the tranny with really no way of getting it off! Great idea about the anti-seize for nut and joints, and like you said, maybe I can back off the torque a tad when I use it.

Ball joints have pried out of the control arm many times, and the boots show it, which is why I might change them out. I think the car has had 3 pairs of axles in it. What I actually meant was is a crowbar enough to pry the threaded end of the ball joint out of the control arm? Good point about having it apart more recently than 15 years makes it easier to take it apart. I guess what I can do is mark the axle hole position with some paint, check the VALLEY and RIDGE position, and make sure it's right. Sounds to me like the idea is to key the axle to the shaft using a spline? Thanks to your description and DaveT, I know exactly what to look for now.

Anyone have any input on whether axles that click only when turning can just be repacked and rebooted? 

Crow bar will probably work if it’s been apart and not stuck.  The further you spread the receiving side of the ball, the easier it’ll come out too. I use a pickle fork to remove ball joints but that damages the ball joint boot and I’m almost always replacing them.  Works every time even on nasty fused rusty garbage.

Ive got a 100% success rate cleaning and repacking noisy axles.  Some really bad ones. But I’m always doing it to my own axles I know their age exposure and some or all of their history. The noise is caused by lack of grease or it’s all watery and in terrible condition. pours out when you cut the boot, not like normal grease.  

If it’s seen sand or aggregate your chances probably go down. I have tossed some I wouldn’t bother repacking too if they’re unknown or saw copious sand.  

You don’t have much to loose to try. they basically drive forever on noisy axles anyway. My 230k Tribeca OEM axles have been noisy for awhile snd I’ll wait 10s of thousands more miles to repack and regrease them. They’re not broken and I’ll wait until I have to pull the axles for some other job. Zero worries. But I detest aftermarket axles so I’m not saying they’re a good candidate to approach the same way. But that aside, the axles are probably more forgiving than colloquial auto wisdom touts. 

As a test - if the boots are broken you can simply repack grease in through there with a grease gun and needle fitting.  If it quiets down then you’ll likely be fine. I’ve done this before and they quite down immediately just like a freshly greased door hinge, but the grease will sling out almost immediately. So it’s not lasting or workable even as a short term fix. But it gives you a proof of concept and test if it’s hard to believe me over conventional axle “wisdom”

[DaveT]

You could use a rod slightly smaller than the hole as a double check, I just check the spline / valley positions.  Use the drift to get the insertion depth right, the tap the roll pin in, paying attention in case it hangs up.

 

I disabled, cleaned and re greased a clicky axle or 2.  I also bought ball bearing balls, and replaced the bad ones in one.  Look at the wear on the center start piece, and the walls of the cup.  One of mine had a little more wear on the sides that were carrying the load, so I swapped the axle to the other side, which puts the load on the opposite faces.  So far, so good.  Almost all of my axles are OEM axles.  I've been running these models since 1988.  I bought used OEM axles back then and re greased them.   When one of my earlier cars was done [due to rust] I saved all the parts except the rusted out body.   I never bought an aftermarket axle, the only few of those I have came on the later used cars I bought.