Rust Repair Advice Needed

[j-karr]

I just took home an 88 GL 4WD hatch. Dual range, 4 speed. It seems to run and drive very nicely, and for what I got it for in the northeast it seemed worth the gamble to try and give it a new lease on life. The PO had resealed the engine, put in a new clutch, a new weber carb, and a lot of things to get it running and driving right. It made the 300 mile ride home without a hiccup.

However, it seems to be in dire need of rust repair, particularly in the front drivers side floor area. I just had it on a lift and saw the attached photo, and felt a little disheartened with what I saw.

Any suggestions for overall cost of repair, if it is possible at all, or worth doing? I'm in Philadelphia, and am open to paying someone for the work if there's anyone around.

https://i.imgur.com/p8b39xo.jpg

Edited March 9, 2022 by j-karr

[Numbchux]

Anything is possible, but that is the major structural member of the car that is rusted out. It's going to require considerable time and patience to fabricate new frame rails, and seal everything up. Not to mention the fact that I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg (maybe it's the worst of it, but I bet there's a lot more). Looks like the rocker is gone.

 

If you're doing it yourself, looking for a project to fill up your free time, knock yourself out.

 

If you're paying someone to do it. It'd be far cheaper to have a solid shell shipped to you from another part of the country.

[DaveT]

What Numbchux wrote.

I'm in the N.E.  The last car I bought was a 1993 wagon, from a guy in California.  I've seen parts on that car that I have never seen with the factory plating on before.  I also had to do a reseal of the engine on that car when I got it.  I'd rather do it again that way than go after rust so bad structural stuff is gone.  I then did a few mods that will slow some of the worst offender rust starting areas.

 

[idosubaru]

On 3/9/2022 at 12:46 PM, j-karr said:

I just took home an 88 GL 4WD hatch. Dual range, 4 speed. It seems to run and drive very nicely, and for what I got it for in the northeast it seemed worth the gamble to try and give it a new lease on life. The PO had resealed the engine, put in a new clutch, a new weber carb, and a lot of things to get it running and driving right. It made the 300 mile ride home without a hiccup.

However, it seems to be in dire need of rust repair, particularly in the front drivers side floor area. I just had it on a lift and saw the attached photo, and felt a little disheartened with what I saw.

Any suggestions for overall cost of repair, if it is possible at all, or worth doing? I'm in Philadelphia, and am open to paying someone for the work if there's anyone around.

https://i.imgur.com/p8b39xo.jpg

Let's start with the good take on this - an 88 hatch is a sweet ride!  Get it, and keep it, drivable and enjoy driving it.  

It's really dependent on you finding someone, there's no "going rate" for a job like this.  It varies wildly and many shops/mechanics don't want to touch stuff like that. Body shops aren't a good fit, they'll be pricey and have plenty of insurance work. But ask around and see if there's any where that's willing to give it a rough patch job for a reasonable cost. I'd ask friends/shops/mechanics who they know that might be a good fit, don't just ask if they'll do it. 

Actual, legitimate, long term repair is for hard core DIY or restorations, or custom work only. In many areas that's a high priced sector of the automotive world, not something you're going to get quick lube oil change rates for. 

With a little effort and cost you should enjoy a solid 5 more years out of this vehicle. 

Also - if it's driven in the snow/treated roads or salty ocean front environments - copiously spray/wash the underside of the car off as much as you can.  At a bare minimum spray the under side of the car in the spring a few times as the weather begins to warm.  Or frequently if it's in a garage that's considerably warmer than outside. chemical reactions happen exponentially in relation to temperature as described by the Arrhenious equation.  So wash the salt off and particularly wash the salt off before/when it gets warmer out if you can't do it regularly. 

The bad news.

That's essentially non-repairable. A proper repair would be thousands of dollars and finding someone to do it wouldn't be easy. Of course call some custom shops or body shops and get a quote or ask who does that kind of work to see what happens locally. 

A friends German landrover looks like that - all his body panels are immaculate and perfect.  No rust - except underneath on similar parts as yours from sitting in grass.  No body work needed - $20,000 quote just to fix the rusty frame.

It's almost impossible to get it all out - and it WILL come back.  I've tried.  It's crazy how far back it goes, how you have to keep cutting and cutting, and then there's areas you can't cut without getting into more stuff or much bigger job than you wanted.  It's a loosing endless battler without massive overhaul.  Whatever you see - it's 10x worse.  And unless you're really good - it'll come back. 

 

[newmexguy]

Yep it's all about location.   Have had this wagon in Denver Craigslist for over 18 months, and still haven't gotten someone to come down and scoop it up.  Excellent parts vehicle.  Southern New Mexico location.  For most, that is about the same as "off the end of the earth"  lol 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by newmexguy

[KiwiGL]

On 3/12/2022 at 2:48 AM, idosubaru said:

Let's start with the good take on this - an 88 hatch is a sweet ride!  Get it, and keep it, drivable and enjoy driving it.  

It's really dependent on you finding someone, there's no "going rate" for a job like this.  It varies wildly and many shops/mechanics don't want to touch stuff like that. Body shops aren't a good fit, they'll be pricey and have plenty of insurance work. But ask around and see if there's any where that's willing to give it a rough patch job for a reasonable cost. I'd ask friends/shops/mechanics who they know that might be a good fit, don't just ask if they'll do it. 

Actual, legitimate, long term repair is for hard core DIY or restorations, or custom work only. In many areas that's a high priced sector of the automotive world, not something you're going to get quick lube oil change rates for. 

With a little effort and cost you should enjoy a solid 5 more years out of this vehicle. 

Also - if it's driven in the snow/treated roads or salty ocean front environments - copiously spray/wash the underside of the car off as much as you can.  At a bare minimum spray the under side of the car in the spring a few times as the weather begins to warm.  Or frequently if it's in a garage that's considerably warmer than outside. chemical reactions happen exponentially in relation to temperature as described by the Arrhenious equation.  So wash the salt off and particularly wash the salt off before/when it gets warmer out if you can't do it regularly. 

The bad news.

That's essentially non-repairable. A proper repair would be thousands of dollars and finding someone to do it wouldn't be easy. Of course call some custom shops or body shops and get a quote or ask who does that kind of work to see what happens locally. 

A friends German landrover looks like that - all his body panels are immaculate and perfect.  No rust - except underneath on similar parts as yours from sitting in grass.  No body work needed - $20,000 quote just to fix the rusty frame.

It's almost impossible to get it all out - and it WILL come back.  I've tried.  It's crazy how far back it goes, how you have to keep cutting and cutting, and then there's areas you can't cut without getting into more stuff or much bigger job than you wanted.  It's a loosing endless battler without massive overhaul.  Whatever you see - it's 10x worse.  And unless you're really good - it'll come back. 

 

At least with a Land Rover you can buy newly manufactured Galvanized chassis! And just swap over the body and running gear.

[moosens]

This has got to be my old photographer buddy Julieanne. Hope you’re doing well. Good to see you still up here in the northeast and on this board. 
 

That’s a tough spot. Nice to see folks let us know how good they’ve got it but that doesn’t help you much. I once had a guy cut and ship sections to me but those are now in someone else’s hands and likely never got installed. 
 

Only guy in your area I can think of might be Anthony Cano ( I think his real last name is a bit longer)  who you’ll see around the Subaru 360 locations. He’s done some nice work on his own rigs , not sure if he is willing. I’ll try to see if I can find some contact info. 
 

For a while I saw that the wagon you had was with another guy who had contacted me. Not sure where it is now. My sweet wheels and front bar , wish I had those back but that’s life. I’m taking on another 1978 4WD wagon this year. Maybe we’ll catch up sometime. Cheers! 

Edited March 13, 2022 by moosens

[idosubaru]

18 hours ago, KiwiGL said:

At least with a Land Rover you can buy newly manufactured Galvanized chassis! And just swap over the body and running gear.

Good call!  That quote is for exactly what you said and some supporting work I assume. His was imported from Germany to the US and isn’t a variation or model available here though I’d imagine the frame is the same. 

[subaru1988]

On 3/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, j-karr said:

I just took home an 88 GL 4WD hatch. Dual range, 4 speed. It seems to run and drive very nicely, and for what I got it for in the northeast it seemed worth the gamble to try and give it a new lease on life. The PO had resealed the engine, put in a new clutch, a new weber carb, and a lot of things to get it running and driving right. It made the 300 mile ride home without a hiccup.

Aside from that rotten area, it sounds like a decent car. One thing to think about right now is the cost of a used car and the cost of gas. I wouldn't be surprised if that car can get close to 30 MPG. It also depends on how much you paid for the car. If all of this lines up in your favor, it just might be worth it to reasonably REPAIR it. As others have said, you'll never really be able to fix it.

On 3/11/2022 at 6:48 AM, idosubaru said:

...give it a rough patch job for a reasonable cost....With a little effort and cost you should enjoy a solid 5 more years out of this vehicle...

That's what I'd shoot for, especially with gas prices the way they are. I'm sure there is someone out there can essentially make a "gussett" from one part where there's clean sheet metal to the other end with a ugly floor patch more than likely on top and under the seat. You're not going for looks here, just function to get a few more years out of the car. I've seen this kind of repair done on old American cars, on both full frame and unibody. Is it factory strength? Probably not. Did it work "good enough"? Yes.

Edited March 13, 2022 by subaru1988

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, subaru1988 said:

Aside from that rotten area, it sounds like a decent car. One thing to think about right now is the cost of a used car and the cost of gas. I wouldn't be surprised if that car can get close to 30 MPG. It also depends on how much you paid for the car. If all of this lines up in your favor, it just might be worth it to reasonably REPAIR it. As others have said, you'll never really be able to fix it.

That's what I'd shoot for, especially with gas prices the way they are. I'm sure there is someone out there can essentially make a "gussett" from one part where there's clean sheet metal to the other end with a ugly floor patch more than likely on top and under the seat. You're not going for looks here, just function to get a few more years out of the car. I've seen this kind of repair done on old American cars, on both full frame and unibody. Is it factory strength? Probably not. Did it work "good enough"? Yes.

You want to make sure you don't get someone who doesn't know what they're doing and covers it up to just pass inspection which can often mean trapping rust and water inside of it.  Some places in areas with inspections will do this - just get it rhough inspection and there very well may treat an old Subaru like a Ford Tempo.  You don't want that kind of a "patch".  I'd almost want it more open than covered unless they do a really good job of attacking the rust directly. 

[j-karr]

On 3/12/2022 at 7:04 PM, moosens said:

This has got to be my old photographer buddy Julieanne. Hope you’re doing well. Good to see you still up here in the northeast and on this board. 
 

That’s a tough spot. Nice to see folks let us know how good they’ve got it but that doesn’t help you much. I once had a guy cut and ship sections to me but those are now in someone else’s hands and likely never got installed. 
 

Only guy in your area I can think of might be Anthony Cano ( I think his real last name is a bit longer)  who you’ll see around the Subaru 360 locations. He’s done some nice work on his own rigs , not sure if he is willing. I’ll try to see if I can find some contact info. 
 

For a while I saw that the wagon you had was with another guy who had contacted me. Not sure where it is now. My sweet wheels and front bar , wish I had those back but that’s life. I’m taking on another 1978 4WD wagon this year. Maybe we’ll catch up sometime. Cheers! 

Yes, that's me! I got into a pretty tight spot many moons ago when I still had that car and had to let it go. I still regret selling it, as it was a pretty special one. It stayed local for a while but last I heard it was heading out West and living an interesting life. This is the first old Subie I've had since then, what, close to 7 or 8 years ago now. Once I signed back in here all the memories of that time came back, and I haven't forgotten your generosity back then. Seeing your username totally brought me back. It was great meeting you, and hopefully I'll make it up there again!

 

Everyone, I appreciate the input. I'm feeling a little better about it after reading your replies. I mounted new tires to replace the dry-rotted units it came with along with getting an alignment done, and I took it up a couple hours north to some wrenching friends of mine and to give it a more thorough looking at and toss about on the windy roads up there. While the rust is definitely very bad the car is proving to be totally worth saving, as it really does run and drive nicely. The suspension is surprisingly spry. Idosubaru, I'm probably going your route - friends of mine who are more skilled than I fell in love with it and want to help attack the rust. We're going to team up and patch it up structurally as best we can, and then I'll do my best to maintain it and keep it clean afterwards. She'll never be mint, but we can probably get it to the point where I can use it as intended for as long as I can.

I think the car could be quite efficient while doing what I want it to do, I just need to tinker with the Weber carb it has, seems to run a little rich. I am maybe getting about 200ish miles per 8.5 gallons, hard to be totally accurate as the speedo/odo don't work even with a new speedo cable, haha.

Here are a couple more flattering shots of the little beast. 

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

 

 

 

 

 

 

[moosens]

Reminds me of what I dealt with in my 1978 wagon you likely recall. It’s still going up in Massachusetts but I made the decision to let it go to someone who had time for the bodywork needed. 
 

Same as yours , mine looked pretty damn good from up top but was getting a little too “holey” for me and brake lines took the worst of it. 
 

Be sure to lift the carpet and check the side sills and floor that butts up to to the sills or “rocket panels”. That’s a build up place for us rust zoners. 

See you at Pine Barrens or maybe NJMP sometime ! 

[el_freddo]

Geez I love the look of these! My mate on the otherside of our vast country/continent has the most famous one in Oz - Hatchie. It’s a beast and only one of 5 we think are still in existence in our country as we never got them delivered here.  

Totally have a crack at saving it! 

The other thing that could be done is grafting good, non-rusted parts from a donor vehicle. Best bit is that this part of the chassis is shared with the Brat, sedan, wagon and coupes! So find a rear ended one of these and go for your life on it. 

Is there any other rust in it? I’d check under the windscreen and the door hinges. Typically rust like what you found I the first pic you shared is a result of a rust hole under the windscreen which allows moisture/water to work its way down the inside of the A pillar, rusting out a patch under the lower hinge followed by the chassis rail you have shown there.  

It’s best to pull the windscreen and check it out under there as ANY small bits of rust showing around the edges = more under it every time! 

I hope you and your mates get this one sorted and manage to do a good job on it. An extreme way to really look after it and the ultimate way to do it is strip the whole vehicle down to just the body and have it acid dipped. It’s a process but the best way to know that you’ve killed all the rust. After the acid dip I believe they do a primer or some dip to seal up all the fresh metal to avoid more rust. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[newmexguy]

If you had had this vehicle 24 plus months ago, the local yard had several donors that could have been cut up.  But they crushed out in Oct '20.   Closed. Done. The pick a parts down in El Paso do not allow saws, for most part, and to most individuals.  Liability issues.  And these cars have dried up, even down here.   

Edited June 20, 2022 by newmexguy

[subaru1988]

On 3/19/2022 at 3:26 AM, el_freddo said:

I’d check under the windscreen...Typically rust like what you found I the first pic you shared is a result of a rust hole under the windscreen which allows moisture/water to work its way down the inside of the A pillar, rusting out a patch under the lower hinge followed by the chassis rail you have shown there.  

It’s best to pull the windscreen and check it out under there as ANY small bits of rust showing around the edges = more under it every time! 

 

Not sure if what I was told was BS, but I had the windshield replaced on my '88 Wagon a few years ago.  The guy that did it told me that if he finds rust holes when he takes the old windshield off, he would not put a new windshield in it, and he wouldn't put the old one back in either! I'm not sure what the reason was for this, but I thought it was a total load of crap because a decent running car would be obviously useless at that point thanks to a little rust under the windshield!

That said, I knew for a fact the car didn't have any rust in that area, so I told him I'd take the chance. The moral here is if you're checking for rust in that area by getting a new windshield, be aware that if you can't put the old windshield back in it's place by yourself, you're going to get a crash course in learning how to do it if leaving people hanging for rust holes under the windshield is now the industry standard.

[el_freddo]

@subaru1988 - the reason why the windscreen guy told you this is because the way the L series has its windscreen fitted is with glue/hard silicone to effectively glue it in place. If there’s any rust under there the windscreen will leak and not hold in place, and if left, the rust will continue unchecked, potentially to a point where it’s irreversible. 

The MYs/Brats etc have a rubber that grips the body work and the windscreen, so some rust under there doesn’t really need to hold anything if it’s a hole, but it will continue and you’ll probably have a water leak into the cabin too. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[lostbrat]

I looked at your first posts picture.. I have repaired that area on both sides with structural tubing 2"x2" either 1/8" or even better 1/4" thick tube.. all brats .. not to involved..

Or sell to me.. never had a hatch... Have had 10 brats at once.. now down to 4