Oil Consumption '14 Forester (I know the Usual Problems, Not Looking for an Explanation)

[1 Lucky Texan]

Yeah, I also read something written by a motorcycle engine rebuilder and they also recommend just driving it normal-to-hard. The combustion chamber pressure pushes the rings outward and he feels they seat better with use at near max power.....dunno if that translates to our engines perfectly...but no way would I ignore gd's experience.

[GeneralDisorder]

That is exactly correct. Cylinder pressure forces the rings to seat faster. And really - when we are building high performance engines - it would be dangerous to send them out without testing them at full power to ascertain and program the proper fuel and timing maps into the computer. Not doing so could result in detonation and engine destruction in short order.

GD

[Daskuppler]

On 7/9/2022 at 1:40 PM, GeneralDisorder said:

That is exactly correct. Cylinder pressure forces the rings to seat faster. And really - when we are building high performance engines - it would be dangerous to send them out without testing them at full power to ascertain and program the proper fuel and timing maps into the computer. Not doing so could result in detonation and engine destruction in short order.

GD

Hopefully it comes back Friday. I'll just the Subaru oil for the break in and Amsoil will be delivered tomorrow.

 

How long should I run until the first change?

[GeneralDisorder]

Amsoil Break-In should only be run for 500 to 1000 miles as it is non-synthetic (one of their only products that is, in fact). 

GD

[Daskuppler]

16 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Amsoil Break-In should only be run for 500 to 1000 miles as it is non-synthetic (one of their only products that is, in fact). 

GD

I was planning on just using the Subaru oil the dealership puts in for the break in, then switch to the Amsoil SS I got in today.  I'm guessing the same goes for the Subaru oil, 500-1k before it's drained and replaced with the Amsoil SS?

On a side note, what are your thoughts on extended drain intervals?

You have also been discussing the CVT in a towing thread and I didn't want to hijack that thread.  I understand the CVT is weak, what do you recommend to keep them going as long as possible?  I drain and fill (about 5 qts) once per year, usually about 20k miles.  Is subaru CVT fluid the best option out there, or is something from AMSOIL or Castrol equally as good/better? i presume they have a built in cooler, but if not should one be added?  We drive in the mountains a lot and are both rather aggressive drivers.

 

 

[idosubaru]

56 minutes ago, Daskuppler said:

I was planning on just using the Subaru oil the dealership puts in for the break in, then switch to the Amsoil SS I got in today.  I'm guessing the same goes for the Subaru oil, 500-1k before it's drained and replaced with the Amsoil SS?

On a side note, what are your thoughts on extended drain intervals?

You have also been discussing the CVT in a towing thread and I didn't want to hijack that thread.  I understand the CVT is weak, what do you recommend to keep them going as long as possible?  I drain and fill (about 5 qts) once per year, usually about 20k miles.  Is subaru CVT fluid the best option out there, or is something from AMSOIL or Castrol equally as good/better? i presume they have a built in cooler, but if not should one be added?  We drive in the mountains a lot and are both rather aggressive drivers.

 

 

“Extended” - how long? Oil analysis is the gold standard for determining extended (keeping in mind the ambiguity of that word) oil change intervals. 

Monitor AT fluid temps to see if you need a cooler. Or get one with a thermostat so it doesn’t overcool, for example in winter. 

[Daskuppler]

14 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

“Extended” - how long? Oil analysis is the gold standard for determining extended (keeping in mind the ambiguity of that word) oil change intervals. 

Monitor AT fluid temps to see if you need a cooler. Or get one with a thermostat so it doesn’t overcool, for example in winter. 

I usually change oil at 5k intervals (running Mobile1, Castrol, etc).  Amsoil advertises 20k on their signature series, I would never go that far.  Is 10k -15k unrealistic with a modern engine and quality oil/filter (I usually use Purolator One)?

What temperature are these CVTs supposed to be running at?  My old school knowledge says keep transmissions cool, but My Xterra is happy at 180 degrees and I've read that most modern transmissions run significantly hotter than automatics of the 90's.

[heartless]

14 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

We drive in the mountains a lot and are both rather aggressive drivers.

i would suggest that this would put you into the category of "extreme conditions" and as such, i would be more apt to follow the guidelines set out by Subaru for those conditions if you want it to last... neglecting or extending routine maintenance is going to be detrimental in the long run.

i dont drive mountains, but i do live on a gravel road, and dust is a constant thing... this puts me in the "extreme" category...  we are talking very fine dust that gets EVERYWHERE - inside the car even with closed windows so you can bet it is getting into engine bay - i dont even have to drive my car - just traffic passing by is enough. Needless to say, i pay attention to things like oil and filter changes.

[Daskuppler]

301.5 miles later and it threw a rod.  They're still assessing damage.

[el_freddo]

20 minutes ago, Daskuppler said:

They're still assessing damage.

By “They’re” you mean the dealership? 

Best of luck, I really hope they come to the table to help you out there. Probably the best thing you’ve done is had them do their oil consumption test recently. 

Fingers crossed! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[GeneralDisorder]

3 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

301.5 miles later and it threw a rod.  They're still assessing damage.

All too common unfortunately. We had one (13 OBW) that made it 13k before it threw three rods. The reman's come with a 36k 3 year warranty for reasons.....

If this is a dealer new or reman short block Subaru will cover the entire cost. 

GD

Edited July 20, 2022 by GeneralDisorder

[Daskuppler]

3 hours ago, el_freddo said:

By “They’re” you mean the dealership? 

Best of luck, I really hope they come to the table to help you out there. Probably the best thing you’ve done is had them do their oil consumption test recently. 

Fingers crossed! 

Cheers 

Bennie

Yes, it's at the dealership. They will be tearing it down again.

28 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

All too common unfortunately. We had one (13 OBW) that made it 13k before it threw three rods. The reman's come with a 36k 3 year warranty for reasons.....

If this is a dealer new or reman short block Subaru will cover the entire cost. 

GD

They told us it's now unlimited mileage for 36 months. Who knows though. It is indeed a dealer remanufactured block. New blocks and new heads are apparently unavailable.

Why do these have such a high failure rate? It seems like remanufacturing a block would be a relatively simple process when done in a factory.

[GeneralDisorder]

It could be they have changed it to 36 months and unlimited mileage. I'm not sure on that. 

Subaru of America uses a contract remanufacturer(s) to recondition the short block assemblies. When it comes to this process they are necessarily done largely or entirely by hand. Each core engine is slightly different with respect to rebuilding. I'm sure they basically always use new cranks, rods, and pistons but reconditioning of the crankcase itself introduces some amount of variables that have not been entirely adequately examined and considered. Failure rates are absolutely measurable and it's not just the the reman short block but also the dealership cutting corners and reusing components that have been touched with contaminated engine oil and potentially are carrying damaging bearing materials that can recontaminate the replacement engine. Technicians often are unaware of the consequences of re-using components such as camshaft sprockets that may contain damaging metal shavings, etc. 

GD 

Edited July 20, 2022 by GeneralDisorder

[Daskuppler]

11 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

It could be they have changed it to 36 months and unlimited mileage. I'm not sure on that. 

Subaru of America uses a contract remanufacturer(s) to recondition the short block assemblies. When it comes to this process they are necessarily done largely or entirely by hand. Each core engine is slightly different with respect to rebuilding. I'm sure they basically always use new cranks, rods, and pistons but reconditioning of the crankcase itself introduces some amount of variables that have not been entirely adequately examined and considered. Failure rates are absolutely measurable and it's not just the the reman short block but also the dealership cutting corners and reusing components that have been touched with contaminated engine oil and potentially are carrying damaging bearing materials that can recontaminate the replacement engine. Technicians often are unaware of the consequences of re-using components such as camshaft sprockets that may contain damaging metal shavings, etc. 

GD 

That makes sense.  They reused a lot of parts including the sprockets and timing chain.  The parts list was really only the block and gaskets.  Hopefully there is enough collateral damage this go around to to replace pretty much everything.  After 300 miles, the oil was shimmery.  Still golden, but shimmery.

[Daskuppler]

Looks like we will be getting a whole new engine. They said it will be a couple weeks due to the warranty complications.

[Daskuppler]

They are now refusing to replace the heads and are claiming it's the same repair as before...However, they are waiting on timing components to complete the repair and they never replaced anything in regards to running the first time. Seems like something went haywire to me....Pesky stealerships!

[Daskuppler]

Having had a third block put in after the second one spun the number two rod bearing and the main bearings seized, the car feels sluggish and like it has increased parasitic drag.  Is this normal? The car slows down quite a lot when letting off the accelerator and seems slow to accelerate even at full load with no cargo and only one occupant. Should we be concerned...again?

 

At time of failure on the previous block, the bearing failed while passing on the interstate, the red oil pressure light came on and the engine turned off while the car was moving.  The dealership put about 300 miles on the car before returning it to us.  The oil has a slight gray color to it at this time, but there is no metallic shimmer.  The oil is already starting to get a dark golden color after less than 400 miles.

[88SubGL]

Does that car have the cvt transmission, if so, could it have hurt the transmission when it cut off on the interstate? 

[Daskuppler]

7 minutes ago, 88SubGL said:

Does that car have the cvt transmission, if so, could it have hurt the transmission when it cut off on the interstate? 

It does have the CVT.  The engine never seized and the car never stopped rolling, in fact it was pushed to a safe spot but there is concern that there collateral damage.  We ahve been assured that everything is fine and the only damage was in the block...every time despite the oil being full of metal.

At time of failure, the engine would rev up but there was very little power output despite high RPMS.  The red oil light came on and it shut off shortly after.  I initially attributed this to the seized main bearings causing excessive drag on the engine causing the ECU to increase RPMS to maintain power output/speed.  I question it at this point.  I can scan for TCU codes when my wife gets back to the house, I suspect they have lceared any codes that may have been present though.