2000 Legacy L: Should we purchase?

[Ravenwoods]

This car has an automatic transmission and 176,000 miles on it. A decent set of summer tires as well as a great set of Toyo winter tires, both mounted on rims. The current owner is the second owner (since 2003) and has a complete history of maintenance done by a local shop here in Fairbanks, Alaska with an excellent reputation for working on Subarus. 

We don't get the corrosion here typical of other areas such as the lower 48 where salt is used to de-ice the roads. Salt is not used here so the car has little corrosion. The body looks fine. It has a new windshield too.

My daughter currently has a 1995 Legacy L that works fine and has close to 190,000 miles on it, but is cosmetically challenged, with quite a bit of corrosion, and the ABS brakes don't work. She only drives about 3000 miles annually (probably less), dislikes driving, and never drives any significant distance, rarely if ever more than 30 miles away. 

So with the 2.5 engine from this era, I understand the head gaskets are the weak area. We do have a 1998 Forester S that we have had since about 2003 that currently has 316,000 miles on it. We had the local shop do the head gaskets and valve seals at about 160,000 miles and the car just keeps going. To be fair, the previous owner did set it up for towing behind an RV and they said about 50,000 miles on the odometer are towing miles. So the engine might only have 260,000 miles on it or less.  

So my main concern about buying this car are the head gasket issues. The engine is a SOHC. Our Forester has the DOHC. So I'm not sure if that makes a difference concerning the headgaskets. As far as my car repair skills, I have replaced all the timing belts and pulleys on the family fleet of four Subarus and changed out the CV axles when needed. But I've never replaced head gaskets or valve cover seals. So if we did buy this car and the head gaskets needed to be replaced I'm not sure about doing that myself. Would be worth it to replace the head gaskets on this car? The owner did take it to the local shop for an inspection before advertising the car to be sold. They did mention there is a head gasket leak.

The owner isn't sure what the car is worth but mentioned $2000 as what she had in mind. 

[idosubaru]

That’s a great price for that year and model Subaru with that maintenance history. Around here any old beat up subaru with no records and 200k miles would sell for $2k quickly.  If it was local I’d buy that for a guy I know that’s looking. 
 

Id buy it and install a new Subaru timing belt, Subaru lower cogged idler and run it. Those are the two most failure prone timing components that lead to bent valves if they fail.

1. Headgaskets. 2003 is 10 times better than a 98 forester engine. Thats the single worst year forester engine by a long shot. 

2. The 2003 original gaskets will usually start to leak coolant externally *very slowly*, gets worse over a long period of time (years), and causes no drivability issues. Sometimes oil, also externally, but usually coolant.  You can literally top it off with teaspoons or coolant for many years and 100,000 miles usually.  When they first start leaking it’s just “seeping” out, causing the metal to get discolored, not even pooling up or running or dripping. Most owners never notice it but a shop points it out.   So these aren’t alarming head gasket leaks. 

* what you don’t know is if they’re original gaskets or how long it’s been leaking  - but these are forgiving and not prone to catastrophic overheats or engine engine. 

3. If it’s external coolant then immediately go to Subaru, buy a bottle of Subaru coolant conditioner and follow the directions. That stops every single initial leak of the factory installed headgaskets 99% of the time. We don’t know that these are original factory gaskets or if they’ve been leaking a long time, or even if it’s coolant or oil, but if it’s coolant (usually is), it’s worth a try for $5.  Additives in general *suck* and should be avoided. And this Subaru conditioner should be avoided too on an ill running, questionable cooling system. but this one sounds in good order and a proper use case for Subarus coolant conditioner. 

bottom line these engines are very forgiving if it’s original gaskets or they’re properly replaced. And they usually give you many 10s of thousands of miles to plan a repair.

Usually an owner wants to repair it because it’s dripping and staining garage floors or smoking off the exhaust, not for overheating, engine damage or getting stranded.

Id wait to see how bad the leak is and wait to replace headgaskets until you have symptoms that warrant it. A 2003 with a seeping gasket is no big deal, if it’s worse then yeah start planning.

Make sure it’s done right with Subaru gaskets but it sounds like you have that covered  

Valve covers are easier than timing belts so you can easily do those.  Have a ratcheting 10mm wrench for the rear lower valve cover bolts.

 

[el_freddo]

We have a 2000 RX model Liberty/Legacy in our family. Picked it up cheap because of a fried clutch. While the engine was out I replaced the head gaskets not knowing the genuine replacement items would do the same thing as mentioned by idosubaru. Ours made these weird bubble looking things where the coolant was leaking from. Almost looked like a fungus. 

Replaced the HGs with the STi multi layered steel units and haven’t looked back. The car now has 480,000km and is going strong. 

If you do the HGs I’d recommend replacing the valve stem seals and reselling the cam retainer plate. I’ve found this seam between the cam retainer plate and the head is where oil typically seeps from rather than the cam cover seals. Adjust the tappets too while you’re there  

You’ll have a solid car there. They’re built very well. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Ravenwoods]

9 hours ago, idosubaru said:

That’s a great price for that year and model Subaru with that maintenance history. Around here any old beat up subaru with no records and 200k miles would sell for $2k quickly.  If it was local I’d buy that for a guy I know that’s looking. 
 

Id buy it and install a new Subaru timing belt, Subaru lower cogged idler and run it. Those are the two most failure prone timing components that lead to bent valves if they fail.

1. Headgaskets. 2003 is 10 times better than a 98 forester engine. Thats the single worst year forester engine by a long shot. 

2. The 2003 original gaskets will usually start to leak coolant externally *very slowly*, gets worse over a long period of time (years), and causes no drivability issues. Sometimes oil, also externally, but usually coolant.  You can literally top it off with teaspoons or coolant for many years and 100,000 miles usually.  When they first start leaking it’s just “seeping” out, causing the metal to get discolored, not even pooling up or running or dripping. Most owners never notice it but a shop points it out.   So these aren’t alarming head gasket leaks. 

* what you don’t know is if they’re original gaskets or how long it’s been leaking  - but these are forgiving and not prone to catastrophic overheats or engine engine. 

3. If it’s external coolant then immediately go to Subaru, buy a bottle of Subaru coolant conditioner and follow the directions. That stops every single initial leak of the factory installed headgaskets 99% of the time. We don’t know that these are original factory gaskets or if they’ve been leaking a long time, or even if it’s coolant or oil, but if it’s coolant (usually is), it’s worth a try for $5.  Additives in general *suck* and should be avoided. And this Subaru conditioner should be avoided too on an ill running, questionable cooling system. but this one sounds in good order and a proper use case for Subarus coolant conditioner. 

bottom line these engines are very forgiving if it’s original gaskets or they’re properly replaced. And they usually give you many 10s of thousands of miles to plan a repair.

Usually an owner wants to repair it because it’s dripping and staining garage floors or smoking off the exhaust, not for overheating, engine damage or getting stranded.

Id wait to see how bad the leak is and wait to replace headgaskets until you have symptoms that warrant it. A 2003 with a seeping gasket is no big deal, if it’s worse then yeah start planning.

Make sure it’s done right with Subaru gaskets but it sounds like you have that covered  

Valve covers are easier than timing belts so you can easily do those.  Have a ratcheting 10mm wrench for the rear lower valve cover bolts.

 

This is a 2000, bought in 2003 by the current owners. She said there is a maintenance record indicating a Subaru Recall where they replaced the head gaskets, I presume this was done by the first owner.

[Ravenwoods]

Currently my 21 year old daughter is serious about the car. The owner hasn't advertised it online yet, as she is giving us a few days to decide on it.

[lmdew]

Sounds like a good Subaru and a good seller to work with.  Go for it!

[dirty_mech]

After owning a 2000 Legacy L wagon for 7 years so far, I don't regret it.  However I wouldn't do it again due to all the age-related maintenance. 

Your daughter has a 1995 model so I suppose you both have an idea of what you're getting into?  I love my 2000, still own it, but sooo much damn maintenance and parts failures.  If you're a young mechanic then maybe, but be prepared to do unscheduled maintenance on the regular.  If and when I get a new car it will be another Subaru, but I'll be looking in the 5-10 year age range. 

From 15 years on you get a lot of components that start to go bad.  Starter, alternator, fuel pump, starter relay, fuel pump relay, both oxygen sensors, the catalytic converter, hydraulic clutch cylinders, several different suspension bushings and the water pump have all gone out on me.  The timing belt is rubber and a regular maintenance item too which you will need to either be certain when it was changed or change it right away.  I've also changed out countless small things like the turn signal indicator, the control for the driver side windows, the hydraulic shocks for the rear hatch, rotten rubber hoses and many other small things.  I've also had to do age related things like restore the headlights and nuke the cabin air ducts with fungicidal spray to clear out the mildew smell. 

On top of all these age related mechanical issues you have the age related cosmetic and interior issues.  The foam in the seats ages and starts to crumble in some areas, and the paint is cracking like alligator skin.  Sure nothing particular to a Subaru but why deal with all that when you can just buy a newer car?  Any extra you save on the price will be lost paying for unscheduled, age-related maintenance costs.  If you're paying a retail mechanic for maintenance then forget about it - older will be more expensive over time.  I can't even imagine how broke I'd be if I couldn't work on this car myself.

I'm in California where there's also no real salt or rust to deal with, so my Subaru was in relatively good condition to start.  I made the mistake of trusting the last owner who said he recently changed the timing belt, which snapped.  Not the car's fault but I did replace the valves clutch and head gasket in a major job during first year of ownership.  I also replaced the struts twice, once when they went bad and a second time with Outback struts for the height gain.  Legacies are low to the ground and will scrape a lot of stuff if you live in an area with uneven terrain, potentially causing additional damage and maintenance (scraping busted my cat).

Did the clutch again because a standard grade clutch wasn't strong enough (Exedy 15801 proved an excellent upgrade).  Did the head gaskets again because a combination of poorer quality non-OEM gaskets during the first job and not changing the coolant soon enough rusted them out.  Coolant also protects the cooling system from rusting until it gets too old (2 year change interval).  If you notice your coolant turning red, it's probably from your MLS head gaskets rusting away.  It's what happened to me and I'm pretty sure this is a major source of the infamous Subaru head gasket blowouts.  Very religious about my timing belt and coolant change intervals now!

The car is great when it doesn't break down, which is reasonably infrequent - perhaps once a year on average.  It did also teach me a lot about working on vehicles.  I'd recommend it as a starter car for a mechanically inclined teenager or college student, or anyone on a limited budget with free time on their hands, or as a backup or project car.  Your 21 year old daughter might find it a nice upgrade if there's someone in the family who can help out with maintenance.  The handling and extra bit of engine power would be a definite upgrade over an earlier EJ22 Legacy.

But if you can afford it then consider a newer model Subaru.  The components will last longer.  A lot of stuff goes bad after a car gets past 15 years old.  If you're going to buy one of these older Subarus and aren't in a hurry to make a purchase, then I'd try to buy one that's already broken down or on auction for cheap.  2K is what I paid in 2014 for my 2000 Legacy.  It didn't have a leaking headgasket either, but I guess that' s the cost of inflation these days?  I don't know about external leaks; mine was an internal one between coolant jacket and cylinder, so lots of white smoke.  As an aside, it is possible to replace the headgaskets without removing or even unbolting the engine, it's just an awkward angle that's rough on the back. 

At least be ready to invest in maintenance because it will need it soon enough.

[ferp420]

if you cant do the head gaskets your self then i would find out how much there gona cost to have done

thkse 2.5 single overhead cam engines like to drop there beadgaskets at around 150-200k so you most likely wont need to do them again

we payed 3000 to have our head gaskets done at a shop on our 2003

if your payin 3k for gaskets and 2k for the car it dosent look like such a good deal but with the price of used cars today that might be good i dont know

for what its worth i just did the head gaskets on my 2000 imp it had 290k on it when they failed they were real easy to do at home and even surfacing them went smooth alot of labor though it took days of sanding to get the heads flat again but thats the way it goes lol 

 

heres the start of the surfacing

 

before and after sorry its kinda blurry

i glues a peice of sand paper to a granite slab and went to town

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by ferp420

[el_freddo]

Wow that’s a lot of stuff you’ve done and probably reflects the maintenance afforded to it by the previous owner. 

I must say I agree with things like the suspension. We replaced all the suspension bushes about 18 months after getting it on the road along with the front struts. But you expect that with hundreds of thousands of kms on the clock already. That was a $AU1500ish.

The original gearbox was replaced due to a dodgy bearing from I think being run low on oil. Second hand one sourced and is still going well. I think we’ve replaced one or two CV boots in six years and I’ve done the front wheel bearings as preventative maintenance.

Only real issue ours has is an intermittent issue with the IACV stalling the engine sometimes when between gears at low speeds (typically downshifting). The new IACV is too expensive so we just live with it. 

We swapped the headlights too - but only because the opportunity for a clearer set came up for a steal. They’ve gone the same way because the vehicle lives outside. The cut and polish kits can take care of this easily enough. 

The vehicle went through a period of smashing tyres and rims (17 inch aftermarket rims) on our “ultra smooth” Victorian roads, and completely obliterated a rim on a Queensland road while up north. A set of 16 inch factory Subaru rims seem to have sorted the issue so far. 

We’ve not had the interior issues mentioned. The driver’s seat is still firm and comfortable to use on long distance trips. 

A side view mirror was replaced after the lib was rolled on its side one time. Dropped back on its wheels, fluid check and off she went again as if nothing happened. Same for the driver who was fine other than a little shaken up. 

Paint now tells that story and some others mishaps (not ours!) but is otherwise good without any real cosmetic issues from time outside and our baking sun. It’s a metallic green in colour  

We added some driving lights for many hours of night driving and to upgrade the crap high beam. I reckon the low beam on the Gen3 is one of the best from the Subaru line up of the earlier models. 

If you DIY any work on the vehicle it’s a no-brainer to me. If you know what you’re getting and what it could cost to replace it’s the same deal to me. 

Here’s the last uploaded whole vehicle pic from 2017 that I could find with the 17 inch rims before they were destroyed: 

A minty-off-the-show-room-floor-fresh looking Gen3 Outback passed me in my Brumby last weekend. It was a beauty and had me thinking I’d have one if I was in the market. Haven’t seen one in that condition in a very long time!

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

On 8/6/2022 at 8:52 PM, Ravenwoods said:

This is a 2000, bought in 2003 by the current owners. She said there is a maintenance record indicating a Subaru Recall where they replaced the head gaskets, I presume this was done by the first owner.

same engine.  Subaru had a 100k extended headgasket warranty from 00-02.  they install new headgaskets and add a bottle of coolant conditioner as part of the warranty/ TSB. 

if any work or coolant change has been done since then it may not have added the coolant conditioner.  if it's leaking coolant buy a bottle from subaru and follow the directions. and reminder always avoid these snake oil gimmicks in bottles, but here's one rare case where it has a reasonable application if you use your head.

[Stelcom66]

It's kind of ironic in Alaska there's less corrosion than where I live in New England, except for .. and ironic again - the most northern New England state, Maine. I heard that's because a certain ice/snow melting chemical is banned there.

My son had a 1995 Legacy S for a few years up until 2018 I believe, Got him thought college. Kind of funny how he could pass a rich kid's BMW or Mercedes having trouble getting up a hill during a snowstorm. I think he just hit 200k miles with that Subaru, of course with the great 2.2L.

And @el_freddo what a nice Gen3 Outback in that photo. Silly question - what's a Bumby? Based on where the steering wheel is on that Outback you're on a different continent than I ! 

BTW I had a '98 DOHC Subaru Outback 5MT years ago before I knew anything of head gasket troubles - or much about Subarus for that matter, That particular car had the squeaking clutch sound while depressed, throw out bearing I believe. I didn't like the gearing of the transmission. 5th gear at 65 mph was at 3,200 rpm. I always wondered why the engineers geared it like that. Seemed like the engine had plenty of power to be geared taller.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Stelcom66

[brus brother]

Had a 2000 Legacy and after a while it developed a whine from the pinion gear. Been a while but I think SOA replaced tranny under warranty.

In law's same vintage HG went.

 

[Ravenwoods]

My daughter just bought the car for $1850. The owner volunteered to lower the price from $2000 because the Auto-Start stopped working and she hadn't been aware of that. Now our youngest daughter has the newest car. Now she well sell her 95 Legacy. Our eldest daughter has a 96 Legacy with only about 150,000 miles on it. My wife has the 98 Forester that doesn't want to die. I have a 95 Legacy with 207,000 miles on it and a 97 GMC 2500 truck. At one stage I had two 95 Legacies just for me, so we had three 95 Legacies all at the same time. I had picked up my second one for only $400. It needed lots of work so I fixed it up and then sold it for $1100.

[forester2002s]

23 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

what's a Bumby?

Subaru Brumby (aka Subaru Brat)

[Stelcom66]

10 minutes ago, forester2002s said:

Subaru Brumby (aka Subaru Brat)

Oh ok that! My bad on the spelling. 

[Stelcom66]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:11 AM, Ravenwoods said:

My daughter just bought the car for $1850. . . . 

Congrats and good luck! Now all of my kids (in their 30s) have vehicles newer than mine. Interesting you've got a '96 Legacy in the family, just for the heck of it looking around I saw a '96 for sale at a dealership, AWD so it must be an S and 5 speed manual and 2.2L which I like, Per the ad, about 77,000 miles which is questionable. Going for $2999. Also saw a 2001 H6 for double that and more than double the mileage. Cool you've got a '97 GMC truck, I've got a 2002 Silverado.

I like older vehicles. Seems like a lot of mechanics do too, not necessarily because they work on them, but maybe the more basic and proven technology. I sure as heck wouldn't want my engine turning off every time I stopped. I don't need another vehicle, but can't help reading about and looking at older Subarus. Speaking of '98 Foresters - the same dealership as the others had 2 of them, one listing for $1 so I assume a bad engine. I've heard as troublesome as the DOHC was, once the headgaskets are replaced they're good for a very long time.

Maybe it's an easy fix for the auto-start - one advantage and good reason to have an automatic.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Stelcom66
typo

[heartless]

12 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

saw a '96 for sale at a dealership, AWD so it must be an S

All Subarus were AWD from 1994 onward. They stopped producing the FWD versions at that time.

and why would 77K be questionable? it does happen. Not often, granted, but it does happen.

[idosubaru]

10 hours ago, heartless said:

All Subarus were AWD from 1994 onward. They stopped producing the FWD versions at that time.

and why would 77K be questionable? it does happen. Not often, granted, but it does happen.

1996 still had FWD.

1997 was the first year that FWD was not available.

[heartless]

so google lied to me...  go figure - LOL

[Stelcom66]

And spell check didn't catch my typo - 'Maybe it's an easy fox for the auto-start - one advantage and good reason to have an automatic'

I'll admit I sometimes rely too much on technology. 

[heartless]

9 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

And spell check didn't catch my typo

LOL, spell check only checks for spelling, not grammatical use/context

 

[el_freddo]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:50 AM, Stelcom66 said:

And @el_freddo what a nice Gen3 Outback in that photo. Silly question - what's a Bumby? Based on where the steering wheel is on that Outback you're on a different continent than I ! 

Yeah mate I’m down under! 

That pic is of our Liberty, our equivalent to your Legacy over there. Great car and yes, essentially the same as the outback without the lift or larger tyres or two tone paint work. 

I didn’t know they were doing the stop start feature in the Gen3 back then, is this legit or an aftermarket option? 

I too prefer older cars where the driver actually needs to drive properly. My thoughts are too many ppl become reliant on their safety systems rather than practicing proper driving techniques. 

Anyway, congrats on your daughter’s purchase @Ravenwoods! 

Cheers 

Bennie