XT6 won't crank, out of ideas

[linkthehero1234]

So the starter on my 1989 XT6 (3 speed auto) will engage when I turn the key (I can feel and hear it click into place) but won't turn (about 1 in 20 times it'll just crank fine), what I did before was use a multimeter and basically bench test it while it was in the car and I was able to start the car like that a few times. Now, after cleaning the battery posts and terminals turning the key does the same thing but when I try with the multimeter it feels like it clicks into place but doesn't spin and sparks when I take the probes off, as if the battery was shorted (this also happens when I take out the starter and try with a battery charger, but not before). I've tried 3 different starters, 2 different chargers, both multimeter and jumper wires for testing it, and I replaced the battery a few months ago after the old one died.

[1 Lucky Texan]

what is the voltage across the battery while cranking?

[el_freddo]

What happens when you apply 12v directly to the starter wire pin? 

A common issue on the EJ vehicles was the starter circuit not being strong/good enough to crank the starter motor properly. 

The trick was to add a relay that gave the starter the full 12v at the starter wire pin. 

That said, have you checked the condition of your fusible links? And what is the condition/age of your battery leads/cables?

Cheers 

Bennie

Edited December 22, 2022 by el_freddo

[linkthehero1234]

2 hours ago, el_freddo said:

What happens when you apply 12v directly to the starter wire pin? 

A common issue on the EJ vehicles was the starter circuit not being strong/good enough to crank the starter motor properly. 

The trick was to add a relay that gave the starter the full 12v at the starter wire pin. 

That said, have you checked the condition of your fusible links? And what is the condition/age of your battery leads/cables?

Cheers 

Bennie

Fusible links seem fine, although I've only checked for continuity. Battery cables are the same ones that it came with when I got the car and as far as I know the same ones it came with in 1989.

[1 Lucky Texan]

def. worth investigating cables. Decades of corrosion 'wicking' down under the insulation can really compromise them.

[idosubaru]

Cut back the battery cable wiring 6” and see if it’s corroded. Tons of white stuff will be caked into abs between all the wires of the cable. 

Voltage drop or resistance testing will likely confirm without cutting if that scares you  

Measure voltage at battery. 

Measure voltage at starter. 

Tell us those numbers. 

It’s either:

1. battery (is it new?)

2. terminals (are they 100% clean and tight?)

3. corrosion inside the battery cables

4. starter

5. the engine is seized

 

[linkthehero1234]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

Cut back the battery cable wiring 6” and see if it’s corroded. Tons of white stuff will be caked into abs between all the wires of the cable. 

Voltage drop or resistance testing will likely confirm without cutting if that scares you  

Measure voltage at battery. 

Measure voltage at starter. 

Tell us those numbers. 

It’s either:

1. battery (is it new?)

2. terminals (are they 100% clean and tight?)

3. corrosion inside the battery cables

4. starter

5. the engine is seized

 

voltage at battery was 10v before cranking, dropped to 9.8 while (probably needs to charge), starter voltage went from ~4v to ~-2v while cranking

[linkthehero1234]

forgot to mention, engine definitely isn't seized

[idosubaru]

54 minutes ago, linkthehero1234 said:

voltage at battery was 10v before cranking, dropped to 9.8 while (probably needs to charge), starter voltage went from ~4v to ~-2v while cranking

10V isn't usable, it should be ~12.7 volt, 10 isn't even close to good enough. This means one of the following:

1. The battery is bad.  If it never gets above 10V with jumper cables or an external charger then it's bad.  Sometimes they can test good and still be bad. That's rare but when it happens they'll show 12.5 volts and then *very quickly* drop to well below that the first time the battery is used for anything electrical, like the first time you bump that key to start the engine. 

2. The alternator isn't charging the battery, which means one of the following:

a. The harmonic balancer is separating and the alternator isn't spinning fast enough to charge.  Post a photo of the face of it or paint/grease mark a line across the entire face and see if the line is separated after getting the engine to turn over with a jumper cable/jump starter.

b. Test the alternator - jump start the vehicle and test output voltage at the alternator
 

52 minutes ago, linkthehero1234 said:

forgot to mention, engine definitely isn't seized

Okay, I didn't think so but I wanted to be comprehensive - that list is everything it could possibly be if what you have currently described it accurate. 

[linkthehero1234]

there's some unknown problem somewhere in the electrical system, the voltmeter on the dash will read ~11.5 (even when checking with a multimeter says 13v) then quickly drop to 10 after a few minutes

[linkthehero1234]

checked again after leaving it to charge for a while, it was reading ~13v before i turned on the car then turned the key to the run position then after i turned it to run it dropped to ~11v and 10 while trying to crank

[1 Lucky Texan]

I've read that about 9v during cranking is not uncommon which make me think there;s still some resistance somewhere - bad cable or the ground connection from the neg cable to the body needs refreshing?

after a failed start - feel of the batt cables. The warm one may be bad. (too much resistance)

maybe you could use 1 side of jumper cables to parallel a battery cable. clamp to something beefy on the engine, then clamp to the neg. battery terminal. If no improvemnet. remove it and run from the pos terminal of the solenoid to battery pos clamp. Might show you which side needs a new cable.

[idosubaru]

8 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

there's some unknown problem somewhere in the electrical system, the voltmeter on the dash will read ~11.5 (even when checking with a multimeter says 13v) then quickly drop to 10 after a few minutes

XT6 Dash gauges for oil pressure and voltage aren’t very accurate. I wouldn’t even look at those.

How old is the battery?  It may have 13 volts for 2 milliseconds and bad cells brings it too low almost instantaneously.

Charge the battery  then try to start the car once or twice  if it’s below 12 after that then it’s fried  

Use quality jumper cables or power pack - does it turn over then?

Give power directly tk starter post - what happens?

huge issue with jumper cables is cheap cables with anything short of exceptional connectivity won’t flow enough amps. people all the time misdiagnosis a car because jumper cables didn’t start the car but the issue was cheap cables or not good enoug connection  

 

 

[idosubaru]

16 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

 it was reading ~13v before i turned on the car then turned the key to the run position then after i turned it to run it dropped to ~11v

You have a bad battery.

I described that *exact* situation earlier:

19 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Sometimes they can test good and still be bad. That's rare but when it happens they'll show 12.5 volts and then *very quickly* drop to well below that the first time the battery is used for anything electrical, like the first time you bump that key to start the engine. 

 

[linkthehero1234]

11 hours ago, idosubaru said:

XT6 Dash gauges for oil pressure and voltage aren’t very accurate. I wouldn’t even look at those.

How old is the battery?  It may have 13 volts for 2 milliseconds and bad cells brings it too low almost instantaneously.

Charge the battery  then try to start the car once or twice  if it’s below 12 after that then it’s fried  

Use quality jumper cables or power pack - does it turn over then?

Give power directly tk starter post - what happens?

huge issue with jumper cables is cheap cables with anything short of exceptional connectivity won’t flow enough amps. people all the time misdiagnosis a car because jumper cables didn’t start the car but the issue was cheap cables or not good enoug connection  

 

 

i got the battery around september, i wont be home for a few days but will try that when i get back

[linkthehero1234]

On 12/22/2022 at 10:30 PM, idosubaru said:

XT6 Dash gauges for oil pressure and voltage aren’t very accurate. I wouldn’t even look at those.

How old is the battery?  It may have 13 volts for 2 milliseconds and bad cells brings it too low almost instantaneously.

Charge the battery  then try to start the car once or twice  if it’s below 12 after that then it’s fried  

Use quality jumper cables or power pack - does it turn over then?

Give power directly tk starter post - what happens?

huge issue with jumper cables is cheap cables with anything short of exceptional connectivity won’t flow enough amps. people all the time misdiagnosis a car because jumper cables didn’t start the car but the issue was cheap cables or not good enoug connection  

 

 

giving power directly from a charger to the starter and trying to turn it makes it turn slowly for a couple seconds then turn backwards a bit, is this a problem with the + battery cable?

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

giving power directly from a charger to the starter and trying to turn it makes it turn slowly for a couple seconds then turn backwards a bit, is this a problem with the + battery cable?

If it’s an engine starter with 100amps available, it was set right, connections to clean metal was sufficient, and the starter cables aren’t thin cheap garbage then yes the cable or starter is bad. 

But some huge clarifiers: clamps and cables are way harder to get right than most people think particularly in this day and age of cheap Chinese garbage clamps and cables.

“Charger” - what kind?  Lithium Ion like a NEECO or corded 120V power pack pushing 100 amps? 

The lithium packs do poorly on batteries as bad as you’re saying unless it’s a huge beefy one  

If it’s a plugged in variety and if equipped with settings, was it set to “engine start”? Charging is like 40 amps, starting is like 100.

“directly from a charger to the starter mean” - where was it clamped?

Directly from charger to starter suggests it was fed power to the starter bypassing the cables so those can’t be the issue. And this isn’t a bad test to do but it’s a little tricky to get clamps down there or run wire.

But you’re suggesting the cable is bad so maybe you mean the charger was clamped to the cables or battery terminals?

Thats hard to say - often times the clamps don’t provide enough surface area of clean contact to pull all the amps necessary. I’ve got huge heavy duty heavy gauge cables that work most of the time and light duty cables that often won’t start a car, can’t get good contact and the cables get very warm after trying to start a car. Those cheap cables and poor connections cause lots of misdiagnosis. And the 10V battery is useless so we need great connections  

Many chargers and clamps and connections aren’t solid enough for pulling 100 amp engine charger/starter.

I don’t think this matters here but XT6s never came with a 3 speed auto. So you either have an XT6 with 4EAT, XT with 3AT, or it was converted which is highly unlikely.

Edited January 2, 2023 by idosubaru

[linkthehero1234]

14 hours ago, idosubaru said:

If it’s an engine starter with 100amps available, it was set right, connections to clean metal was sufficient, and the starter cables aren’t thin cheap garbage then yes the cable or starter is bad. 

But some huge clarifiers: clamps and cables are way harder to get right than most people think particularly in this day and age of cheap Chinese garbage clamps and cables.

“Charger” - what kind?  Lithium Ion like a NEECO or corded 120V power pack pushing 100 amps? 

The lithium packs do poorly on batteries as bad as you’re saying unless it’s a huge beefy one  

If it’s a plugged in variety and if equipped with settings, was it set to “engine start”? Charging is like 40 amps, starting is like 100.

“directly from a charger to the starter mean” - where was it clamped?

Directly from charger to starter suggests it was fed power to the starter bypassing the cables so those can’t be the issue. And this isn’t a bad test to do but it’s a little tricky to get clamps down there or run wire.

But you’re suggesting the cable is bad so maybe you mean the charger was clamped to the cables or battery terminals?

Thats hard to say - often times the clamps don’t provide enough surface area of clean contact to pull all the amps necessary. I’ve got huge heavy duty heavy gauge cables that work most of the time and light duty cables that often won’t start a car, can’t get good contact and the cables get very warm after trying to start a car. Those cheap cables and poor connections cause lots of misdiagnosis. And the 10V battery is useless so we need great connections  

Many chargers and clamps and connections aren’t solid enough for pulling 100 amp engine charger/starter.

I don’t think this matters here but XT6s never came with a 3 speed auto. So you either have an XT6 with 4EAT, XT with 3AT, or it was converted which is highly unlikely.

the charger is rated for 1000a, i connected the clamps directly to the starter but the reason i think the battery cable is bad is bc it might be causing resistance between the positive post on the starter and the signal tab. not entirely sure about transmission, its definitely an xt6 but i only thought it was a 3 speed because of the shifter

[linkthehero1234]

replaced the cables, now it cranks but doesn't start and stutters every few seconds while cranking (flexplate?)

[linkthehero1234]

another update, left battery to charge for a while and now it starts

[idosubaru]

7 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

the charger is rated for 1000a, i connected the clamps directly to the starter but the reason i think the battery cable is bad is bc it might be causing resistance between the positive post on the starter and the signal tab. not entirely sure about transmission, its definitely an xt6 but i only thought it was a 3 speed because of the shifter

Oh yeah, I can see it appearing that way if you've heard of the old school 3 speeds.  XT6's all have 4 speeds, but they only have 1-2-D on the selector.  They just don't have a selectable 3rd and 4th.  XT6 auto's have a fantastic beastly transmissions, it's the same transmission found in all legacy/forester/impreza's from 1990-2009 though they seem far less prone to torque bind.  Excellent transmission. 

 

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

another update, left battery to charge for a while and now it starts

Awesome!  So you think the cables were bad?  

In case it comes back keep these things in mind: 

1. replace the starter contacts.  Starter is 2 12mm bolts and easy to remove.  Disassemble it and the contacts are like $10.  Much cheaper and more reliable than aftermarket new starters which can fail in less than a year.  The old contacts will be burnt, pitted, warn. 

2. Older gen Subaru's very commonly have a starter signal issue from the signal wire/ignition/reference voltage.  Here's a thread that I think somewhat describes it. 

[linkthehero1234]

On 1/2/2023 at 5:47 PM, idosubaru said:

Awesome!  So you think the cables were bad?  

In case it comes back keep these things in mind: 

1. replace the starter contacts.  Starter is 2 12mm bolts and easy to remove.  Disassemble it and the contacts are like $10.  Much cheaper and more reliable than aftermarket new starters which can fail in less than a year.  The old contacts will be burnt, pitted, warn. 

2. Older gen Subaru's very commonly have a starter signal issue from the signal wire/ignition/reference voltage.  Here's a thread that I think somewhat describes it. 

i think i am having that starter signal issue since it still only cranks about 1/5 times, where is the link?

[1 Lucky Texan]

when it fails to crank, do you hear the 'click' of the solenoid?

[idosubaru]

20 hours ago, linkthehero1234 said:

i think i am having that starter signal issue since it still only cranks about 1/5 times, where is the link?

All the pictures are gone but some of the text may be helpful.