nelstomlinson Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 My '96 Legacy recently began starting hard, have to crank for 10+ seconds before it starts to fire. Once it's running, it runs great. Fuel mileage has been about 24-ish on the highway, down a little from what I expect, but this is winter with a lot of idling and bad road conditions. About the same time this started, the CEL came on. Code reader says it's P1100, interwebs say that's intermittent MAF error. I unplugged and wiggled and re-plugged the MAF connector, cleared the codes, and drove it a while. The code still hasn't come back, but the hard starting remains. The battery is in fair shape, and the starter spins the engine as quickly as ever, per my ear. While I drove around, I looked at some of the data on the scan tool. When I first started it, the engine coolant temp was 25F. That's probably about right. It quickly warmed to 180F, again about right. I noticed steady readings from the MAF of 0.01 at idle up to 0.11 or so accelerating up a hill at full throttle. Spark advance about 20 degrees at idle, up to around 40 when accelerating. I can't see any signs of any problems, but I really don't know what to look for on these spark ignition engines. I'm not sure what else to try, but I think I better fix this before I burn up a starter. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 12 minutes ago, nelstomlinson said: My '96 Legacy recently began starting hard, have to crank for 10+ seconds before it starts to fire. Once it's running, it runs great. Fuel mileage has been about 24-ish on the highway, down a little from what I expect, but this is winter with a lot of idling and bad road conditions. About the same time this started, the CEL came on. Code reader says it's P1100, interwebs say that's intermittent MAF error. I unplugged and wiggled and re-plugged the MAF connector, cleared the codes, and drove it a while. The code still hasn't come back, but the hard starting remains. The battery is in fair shape, and the starter spins the engine as quickly as ever, per my ear. While I drove around, I looked at some of the data on the scan tool. When I first started it, the engine coolant temp was 25F. That's probably about right. It quickly warmed to 180F, again about right. I noticed steady readings from the MAF of 0.01 at idle up to 0.11 or so accelerating up a hill at full throttle. Spark advance about 20 degrees at idle, up to around 40 when accelerating. I can't see any signs of any problems, but I really don't know what to look for on these spark ignition engines. I'm not sure what else to try, but I think I better fix this before I burn up a starter. Any ideas? Have you pulled a plug to check and see how the system is running/burning? https://www.motorweek.org/features/goss_garage/spark-plug-diagnosis/ How old are your plugs? How are the wires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Did this problem occur just after you filled up with fuel? Could be bad gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 I had an issue with my EJ22 converted L series - I swapped out the following all at once so can’t tell you what solved it. It was super painful to start and when it started it would barely idle and would fluctuate too. When driving it was definitely in a limp mode, not all the ponies were in the stables with these codes! I had codes for the temp sensor, throttle position sensor and O2 sensor from memory (this was 2010!). Actually, I made a video of it at the time I hope that helps out, I know this is the Gen1 EJ22E, but it’s not too much different to the Gen2 EJ22E. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted January 11, 2023 Author Share Posted January 11, 2023 I'm not sure when we last filled up, we don't really track that. It's possible it's bad gas, I suppose I'll have to check the maintenance log in the car about the plugs and wires - from memory they're probably a couple years old, under 10k miles, but I might be thinking about the other '96. It's hard to remember what I did to which when, which is why I keep a little log book in the glove box of each rig. Thanks for the link, that's helpful. This kind of thing is why I hate spark ignition. My diesels don't have these flaky problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 next time you feel certain it will fail, squirt some starting fluid or brake cleaner in the intake. If it starts immediately, probably a fueling problem (losing pressure in the rails???) if it doesn't help, maybe a high voltage issue (arcing?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 It's been 100% about requiring much cranking. I'll have time to try it this weekend. I'll crank in the dark and look for arcing and sparking, and I definitely have a can of starting fluid on hand. What should the fuel trim readings be? Would they be off if the injection was going wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 in a perfect world, fuel trims would be zero. I've read that single digit +/- corrections are OK. Max I think is +/-35 (not sure if this applies back to 96) and would indicate a big problem. massive vacuum leak or maybe leaking injector or bad diaphragm in the fuel pressure regulator or ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Oh. I'll look for a vacuum leak, too. It could be hard starting because it's getting a lean mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted January 18, 2023 Author Share Posted January 18, 2023 I changed the plugs, and it's starting a lot easier: crank-crank-roar! instead of cranking for 10+ seconds. The plugs looked OK, and the gap was still barely in spec. I changed'em anyway, and it started quick and easy for the first time in a week or so. Cylinder 2 plug was a little more discolored than the other three, but none of them look like there's serious trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 NGK copper core is all you need! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted January 18, 2023 Share Posted January 18, 2023 yup, basic copper core NGK plugs are best for the NA 2.2s and 2.5s - If you put anything else in, you are wasting your money. These cars do not need iridium or platinum, or whatever else the market is pushing. Wires should be OE or NGK only - aftermarket, parts store brands do not hold up and are known to cause running issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted January 30, 2023 Author Share Posted January 30, 2023 The car started right up in the shop, with coolant temp at +50F. It doesn't start at all now with coolant temp 30F cooler: it cranks, coughs a little, but never catches. This is really getting irritating. When I get the '02 running I'll probably just park this one for a while. I really hate fussing with spark engines that don't run right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 It's turned cold again, and the old silver subie is starting hard again, so I took it to a pro. He's telling me that the aftermarket o2 sensor works when hot, but isn't working right when cold, so the computer floods the engine on a cold start. Sounds plausible, I guess. He's trying to source an OEM o2 sensor now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdconvert Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 I was thinking of the metal fatigue/cracking on the tabs of the fuel pump or o-ring. https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/symptoms-of-fuel-pump-o-ring-problem.41182/ Have you checked the fuel pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 11 hours ago, nelstomlinson said: ...so the computer floods the engine on a cold start... Easy enough to do a quick check, by removing a spark plug. If the engine is flooded, the spark-plug would be wet with fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 (edited) '96 is in Open Loop (ECU Programming) when cold - doesn't use the O2 sensors 'til it's warmed up and goes Closed Loop - from what I've read on here and other sites. I don't see in this thread where you changed the Coolant Sensor (there are two and you want the Sensor to the ECU not the Sender to the gauge). Mounted on the passenger side of the coolant cross-over under the intake manifold. Admittedly your temps sound right "engine coolant temp" 25>>180°F. Also, get another MAF - not sure how available used they are up in AK, but any non-turbo Subaru '92 -'98/'99 with the 2.2 or 2.5 will have the green 22680 AA160 JECS or 22680 AA160F AUTECS MAF. Edited November 15, 2023 by wtdash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 My fuel pressure gauge only goes up to 15psi, but there is definitely more than that. The scan tool reports engine coolant temps that are close to ambient, after it's sat all night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 If I unplug the o2 sensor, that would force it into open loop and make the problem go away, if that were the problem, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtdash Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 20 hours ago, nelstomlinson said: If I unplug the o2 sensor, that would force it into open loop and make the problem go away, if that were the problem, right? Not sure on that. It might go into 'limp mode' and add extra fuel as a safety mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelstomlinson Posted March 10 Author Share Posted March 10 A little update on this. I had bypassed the ignition switch, ran power from battery to starter solenoid through a momentary contact switch on the dash. We noticed that it only started hard if we turned the key to on, then cranked the engine. If we turn the key briefly to start, then let it go back to run, then push the starter button, it starts easily. Probably the computer is confused. With all the problems my old diesels have, they are still so much better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now