'88 DL Growling(?) front end noise

[silverbulletwa]

Hi friends, been searching all over the site for someone with a similar issue to mine and have been coming up dry. 

 

The set up: bought a "beater with a heater" for 650 bucks. It's an 88 DL, stick shift, FI, pushbutton four digger, 247k on the clock, engine runs like a sewing machine. This is my third 80's wagon, so I'm fairly well-versed. Did plugs and wires, clutch cable, both front sets of wheel bearings and the drivers side full CV axle when I got it. I have a passenger CV ready to slap in but won't get to it until second week of January. I had the typical clicking issue at lock even after replacing the noisier one (the driver's was missing about two inches of bearing housing on the CV joint), so I'm gonna do both sides. 

My mystery: When I'm engine braking and (until this morning) only when I'm engine braking, there's a grinding "growl" and accompanying vibration from right around the transmission hump. It seems to be a little more towards the passenger side, and sometimes sounds like it could be from where the CV axle and the trans mate, but other times seems back directly below the stick shift. I'm worried that my CV swap won't fix this one (I initially thought it was the play in the CV screaming at me) because this morning when I fired her up I heard that same sound, or at least it seemed to be the same sound,  while in neutral with the clutch in. Turning makes no difference, and I hear it more in second gear than any other gear, though I can get it to show up in any gear as long I load the trans sufficiently. Any thoughts on what I should check next time I'm crawling around under there? There's a fair bit of play in the stick while in gear, and when I shift under load there's a distinct *thunk* that I can hear and feel when disengaging 2nd and then a second time engaging 3rd, not sure about the others because I don't think she's got the oomph to load the same amount in the upper gears. 

Does anybody have some good ideas on where to start, or should I hit it with the radio fix and forget about it until something goes for real and I need to limp home in 4wd?

[idosubaru]

just noise or vibration and noise?

what happens if you also turn the steering wheel without changing speed? Like around a downhill sweeping curve

If it’s just noise then clutch or pilot bearing related. 

vibrating under load is usually inner cv axle joint or front differential. surprised it doesn’t do it when accelerating up hill. Try getting to a stop sign facing up a steep slope and accelerating fast while turning very sharply.  Does it make noise then?

If you suspect front diff - drain the front diff fluid and sift through the oil for gear bits or swirly metal 

Thunk between shifts is probably the rear differential bushings or transmission bushings. Window weld can be used to fill in the old rear diff bushings. Clean and prep well.  Cut cardboard circles to hold the window weld in place from one side,’and slowly build it up a little at a time so it doesn’t “fall” or flow out of place  

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by idosubaru

[el_freddo]

Sounds like it’s an internal gearbox issue. But it’s an odd one since it’s there when in neutral with the clutch disengaged (foot in/on clutch pedal). 

I’d be checking and changing your gearbox oil as suggested by idosubaru, best case scenario you’re low on oil and you’re hearing the gears meshing/whirring as you’ve mentioned. 

Worst case scenario is the gearbox lets go and leaves you stranded. 

The vibration is interesting too. A uni joint on the tailshaft could do that. 

Also what are your gearbox mounts and engine mounts like, can you lever the gearbox or engine around easily? This wouldn’t be helping if they move easily. 

That’s all I can come up with for now - other than the 4wd mechanism partially engaging so the synchro is grinding but it’s a single range that uses the vacuum actuated cable to engage 4wd so I think that one is ruled out. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[czny]

https://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/121582-transmission-reseal-new-bearing-with-pics/

Read this old thread. Might give you some insight as to noises.

IIRC, there's an old thread by Gloyale & others from 2000 decade with similar noises. Didn't find it yet.

 

[silverbulletwa]

Thanks folks, these are some excellent avenues to work down, I'll certainly be reporting back with what I find. There's some vibration accompanying the noise, but the vibration seems less severe than the noise might make one expect, if that makes any sense. The noise is a 7/10 on the "whoa momma" scale, vibration is like a 2.5. On a bumpy road the vibration wouldn't even be noticeable. 

I'll give those diagnostic tests a shot and see what happens. PO did say they threw a 'new' clutch on it semi-recently, though there is some grinding feedback at engagement on occasion, particularly in reverse. If I was somehow able to source a GL trans with the dual range, is there anything besides drop, swap, and roll involved? Fab work/odd parts to snag at a junkyard?

 

El_freddo, I saw some stuff about the uni joints and was figuring on checking those as well, as far as the mounts are concerned, how much oomph are we talking? Lie underneath and try to bench press it (I'm no body builder but I can reef on it a bit) or like put a jack to it/a long crow bar sorta oomph?

[idosubaru]

Has it always made the noise since the clutch job or just started making the noise?

[el_freddo]

If you can physically move it around yourself under the vehicle when on ramps (avoid doing this on Jack stands!) you’ll know if they’re no good as the gearbox will move around excessively. 

If the PO said they replaced the clutch I’d be checking this out asap - remove the battery then remove the starter motor. This will give you access to the 12mm bolts on the clutch pressure plate to see if any of them are loose or missing - you’ll need a Z shaped spanner that typically has ring spanners on each end that step down to get I my the bolts from memory. You might be able to get an inspection camera in there to check the clutch fingers and ensure none are broken/missing. 

I hope this helps! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[czny]

If the PO didn't replace the pilot brg when they did the clutch, the input shaft could still be turning the worn input shaft brg at the back of the trans,thus making that noise(?)

Just a guess.

[silverbulletwa]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:19 PM, idosubaru said:

Has it always made the noise since the clutch job or just started making the noise?

I didn't own it at the time of the clutch job, so I couldn't tell ya. I couldn't say if the clutch is new, but it passes the ol "high gear bumper on a light post and dump it" test at least

[silverbulletwa]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:05 PM, el_freddo said:

If you can physically move it around yourself under the vehicle when on ramps (avoid doing this on Jack stands!) you’ll know if they’re no good as the gearbox will move around excessively. 

If the PO said they replaced the clutch I’d be checking this out asap - remove the battery then remove the starter motor. This will give you access to the 12mm bolts on the clutch pressure plate to see if any of them are loose or missing - you’ll need a Z shaped spanner that typically has ring spanners on each end that step down to get I my the bolts from memory. You might be able to get an inspection camera in there to check the clutch fingers and ensure none are broken/missing. 

I hope this helps! 

Cheers 

Bennie

excellent advice, I'll be crawling around under there next week sometime, hope to come up with some answers

[silverbulletwa]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:11 PM, czny said:

If the PO didn't replace the pilot brg when they did the clutch, the input shaft could still be turning the worn input shaft brg at the back of the trans,thus making that noise(?)

Just a guess.

is a pilot bearing a pain in the rump roast? They're not that expensive to buy... 

[czny]

1 hour ago, silverbulletwa said:

is a pilot bearing a pain in the rump roast? They're not that expensive to buy... 

Only one more little thing to do when pulling the engine for a clutch job. Pilot brg usually comes with a clutch kit.

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, silverbulletwa said:

is a pilot bearing a pain in the rump roast? They're not that expensive to buy... 

engine (or trans) has to come out. Otherwise it’s easy.  You generally do a complete clutch job while you’re in there unless you love pulling engines multiple times. 

[czny]

silverbullet,

If you need another trans like yours contact Chris at NAPA in Libby MT, 406-293-3743.

He has a Loyale that was rolled he'd like to get rid of. That is the store phone number.

He needs the entire car gone, not just parts. All or none.

Edited January 6 by czny

[silverbulletwa]

On 1/6/2024 at 12:24 AM, czny said:

silverbullet,

If you need another trans like yours contact Chris at NAPA in Libby MT, 406-293-3743.

He has a Loyale that was rolled he'd like to get rid of. That is the store phone number.

He needs the entire car gone, not just parts. All or none.

Appreciate the info, I'll keep it in mind. Currently I'm just trying to keep my beater with a heater from turning into a project car with a heater in the spirit of being a thrifty son of a borscht. A to B is all I'm after here, with as many trips per dollar spent as possible

[silverbulletwa]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:23 PM, idosubaru said:

engine (or trans) has to come out. Otherwise it’s easy.  You generally do a complete clutch job while you’re in there unless you love pulling engines multiple times. 

Well here's hoping it got swapped with the clutch replacement then, I'm not especially keen on doing that

[czny]

22 hours ago, silverbulletwa said:

Appreciate the info, I'll keep it in mind. Currently I'm just trying to keep my beater with a heater from turning into a project car with a heater in the spirit of being a thrifty son of a borscht. A to B is all I'm after here, with as many trips per dollar spent as possible

Good luck finding spare single range 5 spd trans at the local PNP yards around Spokane - this one may not be available later given that you didn't get it now. Snooze you lose.

PM was sent about this deal earlier but I guess you didn't get around to reading it(?)

[silverbulletwa]

On 1/8/2024 at 10:38 AM, czny said:

Good luck finding spare single range 5 spd trans at the local PNP yards around Spokane - this one may not be available later given that you didn't get it now. Snooze you lose.

PM was sent about this deal earlier but I guess you didn't get around to reading it(?)

Oh my bad. Didn't see the PM, I'll take a looksee. Really if I was gonna go through the trouble of swapping a trans I'd prolly be more keen on sourcing a dual range manual transfer case one. 

[silverbulletwa]

On 1/8/2024 at 10:38 AM, czny said:

Good luck finding spare single range 5 spd trans at the local PNP yards around Spokane - this one may not be available later given that you didn't get it now. Snooze you lose.

PM was sent about this deal earlier but I guess you didn't get around to reading it(?)

 

On 1/4/2024 at 8:23 PM, idosubaru said:

engine (or trans) has to come out. Otherwise it’s easy.  You generally do a complete clutch job while you’re in there unless you love pulling engines multiple times. 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 6:05 PM, el_freddo said:

If you can physically move it around yourself under the vehicle when on ramps (avoid doing this on Jack stands!) you’ll know if they’re no good as the gearbox will move around excessively. 

If the PO said they replaced the clutch I’d be checking this out asap - remove the battery then remove the starter motor. This will give you access to the 12mm bolts on the clutch pressure plate to see if any of them are loose or missing - you’ll need a Z shaped spanner that typically has ring spanners on each end that step down to get I my the bolts from memory. You might be able to get an inspection camera in there to check the clutch fingers and ensure none are broken/missing. 

I hope this helps! 

Cheers 

Bennie

Sooooooo the latest is that I swapped out the CV axle, and did the passenger side ball joint while i was in there (it was looser than my old.... well it was loose). Backed her outta the garage to go for a little shakedown, and paused to close the door. Put it back in reverse, let out the clutch and *bang.* Suddenly it sounds like there's a bag of gravel in the bell housing. Clutch decided it was done with all this mystery and exited stage left. Got one on order, should be here tomorrow (weather permitting) and I'm gonna spend the evening dropping the trans and seeing what goodies fall out. Case closed! Until the next problem 

[idosubaru]

Very kind of it to do it right as you're backing out of the garage!  Good luck digging in. 

If you drop the trans the engine is going to want to tilt forward into your radiator once the trans is off and engine is free to rotate forward. Protect your radiator (some 2x lumber) and have some way to lift and angle the engine when you go to reinstall - the engine needs lifted about an inch, just a small amount no need to remove any engine parts, and angled front up/rear down to accept the install of the trans. 

It can be a total pain to do this way - more time under the car, dirt falling in your eyes, poor lighting, and more wrestling.  Every tool you forget is a shuffle, shimmy, crawl, head bang on the door sill to go get it and the bolt or tool you need is invisible besides being 3inches above your head or under your left knee. But....it also can go really fast if you're eager and energetic because there's so little to remove - just unbolt it, the shifter, and driveshaft, and out it comes. 

[el_freddo]

That’s pretty “awesome” that the clutch dropped its guts in your driveway and not ages away from home! 

I prefer to remove gearboxes from under the car now and I’m well versed at it having done several and each one was slightly different. 

The last one I did to replace a clutch the gearbox didn’t leave the vehicle, I slid it back as far as possible on some smooth steel tubes so I could access the pressure plate with my tools etc. Worked a treat! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[czny]

Hope your garage is heated. It's -25*F here in NW Montana this morning & you're weather is likewise cold.

NOAA states for Spokane Valley a balmy -8*F. 🥶

Correction, the low here was -35F. I trust my old time u shaped Taylor mercury thermometer more than the digital one.

Edited January 13 by czny

[silverbulletwa]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:03 AM, czny said:

Hope your garage is heated. It's -25*F here in NW Montana this morning & you're weather is likewise cold.

NOAA states for Spokane Valley a balmy -8*F. 🥶

Correction, the low here was -35F. I trust my old time u shaped Taylor mercury thermometer more than the digital one.

 

On 1/13/2024 at 2:30 AM, el_freddo said:

That’s pretty “awesome” that the clutch dropped its guts in your driveway and not ages away from home! 

I prefer to remove gearboxes from under the car now and I’m well versed at it having done several and each one was slightly different. 

The last one I did to replace a clutch the gearbox didn’t leave the vehicle, I slid it back as far as possible on some smooth steel tubes so I could access the pressure plate with my tools etc. Worked a treat! 

Cheers 

Bennie

 

On 1/12/2024 at 4:13 PM, idosubaru said:

Very kind of it to do it right as you're backing out of the garage!  Good luck digging in. 

If you drop the trans the engine is going to want to tilt forward into your radiator once the trans is off and engine is free to rotate forward. Protect your radiator (some 2x lumber) and have some way to lift and angle the engine when you go to reinstall - the engine needs lifted about an inch, just a small amount no need to remove any engine parts, and angled front up/rear down to accept the install of the trans. 

It can be a total pain to do this way - more time under the car, dirt falling in your eyes, poor lighting, and more wrestling.  Every tool you forget is a shuffle, shimmy, crawl, head bang on the door sill to go get it and the bolt or tool you need is invisible besides being 3inches above your head or under your left knee. But....it also can go really fast if you're eager and energetic because there's so little to remove - just unbolt it, the shifter, and driveshaft, and out it comes. 

Garage had heat, thank the Lort. Could keep it a manageable 45ish in there, so no sweat. Got the clutch swapped (went with the engine pull method, that was definitely the move, not nearly as hard as I thought it would be) and she's back on the road. 

...unfortunately, the grinding noise persists, even after swapping out the gear oil, there was metal on the magnetic plug and the oil was silvery. Little quieter now that I put some heavier oil in (lil stiff shifting in the cold mornings but not too bad), but I'm thinking I have a trans bearing that's a bit of a ticking time bomb in there now. There's no real noticeable play forward/back side/side in the input shaft, making me think that it's not one of the main bearings? Transmissions aren't really my specialty though so I'm not too sure here. Any input is obviously welcomed. New symptoms noticed now that some of the other mechanical shouting has quieted: I hear the grinding on startup, and depressing the clutch doesn't always quiet it. Any time I'm pointed downhill it happens more, and it's most noticeable with second and third engaged, as well as reverse. Seems to be more frequent in the cold, but that could also just be it being worse as I drive it more, haven't had a warm enough day to determine which is the case there. Additionally, the grinding is accompanied by vibration, but not through the driveline, I can feel it in my seat only. The steering vibration is gone, making me think the CV axle and ball joint swap did their job. 

 

Case re-opened. If it is a bearing, pull the trans, crack her open, swap the spinny bits? Or buy Chris' in Libby and stab it in there? 

New sound: in 4wd there's a "tinging" that matches drive shaft speed, but I can't find any interference when I move the shaft by hand. Any thoughts on that cause? 

Thanks in advance gang. 

 

 

[czny]

Contact Chris in Libby. Ask him when it could be convenient to get the whole car.

Go there with truck and trailer to bring it home. Push the rollovered donor into the garage and pull engine & trans.

Push the donor out to some safe, as in not in the way, place.

Tarp the donor until spring so people with nose problems don't complain.

This will get you some time to fix your trans or find a good 5mt d/r trans you wish you had instead AND spare axles, rear diff, etc.

Edited January 16 by czny

[idosubaru]

That would be an input shaft bearing right?  Some of those trans bearings can be $100 or more each bearing so price it out.

People have replaced trans bearings.  I think Gloyale (he has a new user name Fer....shoot I forget), but he has a good trans disassembly thread from years ago.

I've pulled the entire engine/trans bolted together out of the engine bay.  It's tight on H6 with automatics just make sure you got enough ceiling room, but I've done it multiple times.  Makes it much easier, no need to separate in the car and you're already used to the engine pull now.  In case you're dreading dropping the thing underneath.