Daskuppler Posted December 29, 2023 Share Posted December 29, 2023 Hello Everyone, I have posted about canbus issues in the past. The issue has been isolated to damaged wires behind the heater core. I have been quoted just shy of 5k to replace the entire harness. Is there any way these wires could have been damaged during an engine block replacement? My thought is when the heater core lines and ac lines were disconnected, the tech was a little rough and the wires got pinched or knicked. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 30, 2023 Share Posted December 30, 2023 I don’t think there’s anyway to prove it. but yes, it could happen If they got damaged during engine work the most likely area is right by the engine. The connector itself or pins or wire from engine to firewall areas. Maybe the connectors were left plugged in during lifting or left on the IM and stretched, etc. It would be nice to verify a bad wire - check resistance/continuity from cabin to engine. Find one bad wire and then test that wire from the engine to the firewall. See if the compromised area is between the engine plug and firewall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted December 31, 2023 Author Share Posted December 31, 2023 8 hours ago, idosubaru said: I don’t think there’s anyway to prove it. but yes, it could happen If they got damaged during engine work the most likely area is right by the engine. The connector itself or pins or wire from engine to firewall areas. Maybe the connectors were left plugged in during lifting or left on the IM and stretched, etc. It would be nice to verify a bad wire - check resistance/continuity from cabin to engine. Find one bad wire and then test that wire from the engine to the firewall. See if the compromised area is between the engine plug and firewall. They told me the damage was find behind the heater coil. The tech was supposed to call me but miraculously had to go home early and I was pushed off until Tuesday. I'm supposed to get photos of the damage and a root cause but who knows. They supposedly aren't several hours on the phone with Subaru engineers to get it all worked out. We'll see. How hard are these wiring harnesses to replace? They're charging something like 4k in labor which seems excessive since diagnostics was only 3 hours which included. Complete tear down of the interior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 On 12/30/2023 at 10:32 PM, Daskuppler said: They told me the damage was find behind the heater coil. The tech was supposed to call me but miraculously had to go home early and I was pushed off until Tuesday. I'm supposed to get photos of the damage and a root cause but who knows. They supposedly aren't several hours on the phone with Subaru engineers to get it all worked out. We'll see. How hard are these wiring harnesses to replace? They're charging something like 4k in labor which seems excessive since diagnostics was only 3 hours which included. Complete tear down of the interior. Oh wow, they dug in. It may require dash removal. That's often mentioned as being a 8-12 hour swap for a dash but I've never done one. $4k implies 25 hours of labor. Still a lot of fat in there but maybe there's more to remove and there's a little bit (not much) engine side disconnecting too. Best case scenario would be to identify the precise cause. If it's just light damage or concentrated to a couple wires, find the compromised wires and replace just those individually by passing them one by one through the fire wall. But Subaru can't do that. They only replace entire parts, they wont just run a new wire to bypass a bad one. If that's the case you'd be better off going somewhere else who can do that. If it's excessive damage like rodent damage - then you're probably sitting where you are right now - need a whole new harness and to make sure no other wires were also damaged. The rodent damage I've seen is always one of two areas - really easy/convenient areas like behind a headlight or areas with lots of food - around seats or foot wells in a car with kids. Maybe anecdotal but I've seen a few and those things have always held, not counting old cars that sat for years which is unlikely to be yours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 If you were digging into this yourself at all you could look into the service manual and what it says about bulkhead replacement. I might even have the 2014-2017 forester, I rebuild a totaled 2017 forester two years ago. I scoured through this crosstek which would very similar in form factor, process, labor - for you briefly but couldnt' find it. Although I did find the dash removal under interior/exterior trim. https://www.sucross.com/subaru_crosstrek_service_manual-728.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 Thanks for looking. The issue presented itself as intermittent canbus communication loss between multiple modules. I had close to 20 codes that would come and go. I still don't really understand how the wires could get damaged behind the heater core... Hopefully the pictures will tell a better story when I get them. I'll post back with findings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 12 hours ago, Daskuppler said: Thanks for looking. The issue presented itself as intermittent canbus communication loss between multiple modules. I had close to 20 codes that would come and go. I still don't really understand how the wires could get damaged behind the heater core... Hopefully the pictures will tell a better story when I get them. I'll post back with findings. It had an engine pulled right? (Maybe even twice, I seem to recall you having a hard time on this thing) 1. Did this CANBUS issue, or any similar issue exist before then? 2. Why was the engine pulled? I think it was mechanical/warranty but trying to be thorough and have the whole timeline 3. How long after the engine pull did the issue start? If it happened after that, there’s a good chance something that happened during work. There’s a few online hits for what has been a relatively obscure part for decades online. Theres complete dash removal video for bulkhead from I-wire. They sell replacement bulkhead connectors requiring de-pinning/re-pinning which seems prone to housing issues/wobbly pins, etc. I wonder if yours could have a damaged connector ? You said they saw damaged wires though? Nothing directly related to yours but 2011 Outback - there’s a couple interesting pictures and noted issues here https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/engine-bulkhead-harness-connector-problems.504735/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, idosubaru said: It had an engine pulled right? (Maybe even twice, I seem to recall you having a hard time on this thing) 1. Did this CANBUS issue, or any similar issue exist before then? 2. Why was the engine pulled? I think it was mechanical/warranty but trying to be thorough and have the whole timeline 3. How long after the engine pull did the issue start? If it happened after that, there’s a good chance something that happened during work. There’s a few online hits for what has been a relatively obscure part for decades online. Theres complete dash removal video for bulkhead from I-wire. They sell replacement bulkhead connectors requiring de-pinning/re-pinning which seems prone to housing issues/wobbly pins, etc. I wonder if yours could have a damaged connector ? You said they saw damaged wires though? Nothing directly related to yours but 2011 Outback - there’s a couple interesting pictures and noted issues here https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/engine-bulkhead-harness-connector-problems.504735/ Correct, this car has had the engine pulled and the block replaced 3 times by this dealership (different team did the engine work though). The block was defective from the factory with oil consumption but we could never get it replaced under warranty. There were no can us issues prior to the work and they popped up about 11months after the the final replacement I was told they found damage on the can bus behind the heater core, but they were too busy with a other customer's vehicle in Friday to send photos with the $5,000 bill and the tech is sick today with no estimated return date (same games they played with the engine replacement). So still no pictures of said damage. The dash has never been removed from this vehicle. It does have an after market stereo, but I didn't get anywhere near the heater core for that install. Prior to taking it to them, I checked the ECM and TCM connections in the engine bay and cleaned them with contact cleaner. The connector on the ECM does not lock in place anymore, but I don't know that it did before the engine replacement. I have tried to get a breakdown of labor and parts but they have not provided anything yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 I called the parts department to verify pricing, Subaru sells the bulkhead for $2041. So they're charging about $2900 in labor or 3 full days to replace the bulkhead. Plus the diagnostic fee of 3 hours labor which included tearing apart the dash. I've not been able to get a labor breakdown from anyone, but 24 hours of labor seems like a lot when it's already apart and everything I've been able 5o find quoted 8ish hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 2900 labor more reasonable than 4000. seems like all those engine pulls it’s possible the harness got yanked or compromised The 2014 bulkhead i have is yours for $1,000 shipping included lol. Edited January 3 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, idosubaru said: 2900 labor more reasonable than 4000. seems like all those engine pulls it’s possible the harness got yanked or compromised The 2014 bulkhead i have is yours for $1,000 shipping included lol. If I thought this was something I could tackle myself I might take you up on it. I don't think Subaru will take your parts though haha. I definitely believe the dealership damaged the harness. There's no reason there should be visible damage to interior wires in such an inaccessible spot, pictures are still elusive though. The service advisor was "nice enough" to have the sales team call us to buy a new vehicle though... Which is super sketchy given the tech has become unavailable, there's nebulous damage after they worked on it, and no estimated date to receive more information. The poor sales manager got an earful, especially after he offered us a "really good" deal on a 2020 Forester Sport with 85k miles on it for 23k with dents, dings, and scratches haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 hours ago, Daskuppler said: If I thought this was something I could tackle myself I might take you up on it. I don't think Subaru will take your parts though haha. I definitely believe the dealership damaged the harness. There's no reason there should be visible damage to interior wires in such an inaccessible spot, pictures are still elusive though. The service advisor was "nice enough" to have the sales team call us to buy a new vehicle though... Which is super sketchy given the tech has become unavailable, there's nebulous damage after they worked on it, and no estimated date to receive more information. The poor sales manager got an earful, especially after he offered us a "really good" deal on a 2020 Forester Sport with 85k miles on it for 23k with dents, dings, and scratches haha. That was decent of them to try, I mean they're trying to flip something imperfect for a low trade value/appease you, but still decent they're considering options. Some Subaru dealers will install used parts, depends on the dealer, it's worth asking. car-part.com probably has cheap ones since they've already got the car disassembled. i'd ship it for $100 if the dash wouldn't take days to get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 Update: dealership said the entire wiring harnesses is shot with multiple shorts throughout the entire harness including in the engine bay. They are blaming the aftermarket radio for the cause, even though it has been installed for 6 years without issues. Can a radio really take out an entire harness without ever blowing a fuse? The tech states that all of the loss of communication codes guaranteed shorts and that's the only diagnostics they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 I'd hit the yard and pull the harness. You will learn a lot and if it's bad you can return it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 6 hours ago, Daskuppler said: Update: dealership said the entire wiring harnesses is shot with multiple shorts throughout the entire harness including in the engine bay. They are blaming the aftermarket radio for the cause, even though it has been installed for 6 years without issues. Can a radio really take out an entire harness without ever blowing a fuse? The tech states that all of the loss of communication codes guaranteed shorts and that's the only diagnostics they did. Do you believe their assessment? The stereo currently works right? Is it wired directly to the alt or have a large amp/capacitor? The stereo harness is quite a bit distant and removed from the engine harness, that doesnt make sense. It cant damage the far away engine wiring without damaging the wiring at the stereo. It’s not like the stereo wiring is better than the engine wiring. I’m surprised they could say that with a straight face or without more explanation. Can you get it to an independent shop?. They’ll install a lower cost used harness and probably charge less labor. Probably lower cost in the long run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, idosubaru said: Do you believe their assessment? The stereo currently works right? Is it wired directly to the alt or have a large amp/capacitor? The stereo harness is quite a bit distant and removed from the engine harness, that doesnt make sense. It cant damage the far away engine wiring without damaging the wiring at the stereo. It’s not like the stereo wiring is better than the engine wiring. I’m surprised they could say that with a straight face or without more explanation. Can you get it to an independent shop?. They’ll install a lower cost used harness and probably charge less labor. Probably lower cost in the long run I don't believe them or trust them at this point. I'm waiting to hear from the SOA specialist that helped diagnose. The radio works fine and has worked fine for quite some time it is wired properly, except for the Android Auto ground which is supposed to go to the E brake (I put it to the negative so you can use it without the car in Park). There is an 800 watt amp for the speakers which is direct to the battery, but is fused. The light bar is it's own fused circuit with only a connection to the battery. I can tow it to another shop and might once this all settles out. We've not agreed to have any work done beyond the diagnostics. It might even still be driveable, but they won't let us see it. There is apparently no physical damage to the wires either, despite them saying there was. They never pulled the dash so they really didn't do anything beyond run codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 16 hours ago, Daskuppler said: I don't believe them or trust them at this point. I'm waiting to hear from the SOA specialist that helped diagnose. The radio works fine and has worked ere is apparently no physical damage to the wires either, despite them saying there was. They never pulled the dash so they really didn't do anything beyond run codes. Sounds like guessing and warranty avoidant. Prob best served somewhere else. Very strange and they won’t let you see your own car?. I’ve seen numerous damaged wires and if there’s significant symptoms there’s melted plastic connectors. Brown plastic. The wire sheathing burned off, or very hard and brittle from heat exposure. Blown fuses. I’ve even seen melted fuses. Don’t want to over state it and I can’t see the install/custom wiring nor am I that good at electrical systems, but stereo wiring causing damage in the engine but no stereo wiring damage and the stereo still working seems like a stretch. Edited January 6 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 (edited) On 1/6/2024 at 12:15 PM, idosubaru said: Sounds like guessing and warranty avoidant. Prob best served somewhere else. Very strange and they won’t let you see your own car?. I’ve seen numerous damaged wires and if there’s significant symptoms there’s melted plastic connectors. Brown plastic. The wire sheathing burned off, or very hard and brittle from heat exposure. Blown fuses. I’ve even seen melted fuses. Don’t want to over state it and I can’t see the install/custom wiring nor am I that good at electrical systems, but stereo wiring causing damage in the engine but no stereo wiring damage and the stereo still working seems like a stretch. So the tech went home sick Friday before New Years weekend. He hasn't come back yet. He apparently locked the car keys in his tool box. We were told there was nothing they could do so we offered to bring a spare, unlock our car, and look at the damage. They refused. I asked if they could make a key from the VIN, they refused. The tech is still out sick (1 full week now) and the service advisor's entire team is off today... So another day with no communication unless SOA calls. All of the manufacturers (Kenwood, Infinity, and Diode Dynamics) laughed at the statement that any of their devices could have caused the damage or void any warranties. They are just pointing blame. The interesting part is that no one approached them for warranty work but yet they blamed all of our equipment as the cause of failure. Kinda sounds like they have a guilty conscious. Edited January 8 by Daskuppler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88SubGL Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 They won’t let you see or get in YOUR car? Tell them you need to get something out of the car. If they’re still hesitant, go to the owner of the dealership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Yeah this situation stinks at best. You should have access to your vehicle and they should be accommodating this as required within reason. And this to me is well within reason! All the best with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 (edited) Update: I spoke with the mechanic today, although not the one that did the work. They are no longer blaming aftermarket electronics and are saying that the issue is most likely in a plug in the harness behind the heater core. They say the most likely cause of failure is water or vibrations from driving 140xxx miles... They then proceeded to tell me the network is very sensitive, but that this is a 1 in a million failure. Could coolant from the heater core lines disconnect make it down there when the engine was pulled multiple times? I still think they ripped. In the harness replacing the motor and caused this. They said the issue was either a bad module or wiring, but modules were ruled out because unplugging the modules did not restore communications between them. SOA called this morning to say the vehicle is out of warranty and to offer a $1500 loyalty coupon towards the purchase of a new car. SOA cited the presence of aftermarket electronics as the possible cause again. I told them they had to prove that and they said it was up to me to push the matter if I wanted. I was encouraged to reach out to the dealership again, but there is essentially no protections from the work they did when they replaced the engine block. Edited January 10 by Daskuppler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 13 hours ago, Daskuppler said: Could coolant from the heater core lines disconnect make it down there when the engine was pulled multiple times? I still think they ripped. In the harness replacing the motor and caused this. Highly unlikely coolant. It would have had issues shortly afterwards, not delayed. Also the connections are fluid resistant, they are very well sealed and not prone to taking on fluids. I've never seen modern connectors get wet and have issues. Submerged or directly in line with a profuse leak and older connectors without any seals i've seen issues, fuses blown, melting things - but not just a one time dousing of modern subaru connectors. Given their proclivity to jump to conclusions and limited diagnosis, their suggestions have to be taken lightly. There's no knowing if this is just a one wire problem or 20. So maybe you could still get lucky to get this thing to an independent shop and find it's not as dark and unfixable as they seem to suggest. I'd ask them to video/photograph what they find with the wiring. Edited January 10 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daskuppler Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 27 minutes ago, idosubaru said: Highly unlikely coolant. It would have had issues shortly afterwards, not delayed. Also the connections are fluid resistant, they are very well sealed and not prone to taking on fluids. I've never seen modern connectors get wet and have issues. Submerged or directly in line with a profuse leak and older connectors without any seals i've seen issues, fuses blown, melting things - but not just a one time dousing of modern subaru connectors. Given their proclivity to jump to conclusions and limited diagnosis, their suggestions have to be taken lightly. There's no knowing if this is just a one wire problem or 20. So maybe you could still get lucky to get this thing to an independent shop and find it's not as dark and unfixable as they seem to suggest. I'd ask them to video/photograph what they find with the wiring. I'm getting quotes from 4 different Subaru specialty shops so hopefully something better comes up. The dealership has been highly reluctant to provide any root cause or photos of anything other than where the harness is visible without removing anything. All of their causes seem highly unlikely and the entire company has been dismissive and disinterested. If I could find better documentation on replacing the harness in this vehicle I might attempt it myself at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Good time for a very honest google review, try to remain factual and keep emotion out of it. That’s disappointing about SOA’s response, I thought they’d look into it further or tell the dealership to pull their head in and help you out since you’re obviously quite a regular service customer. I’d definitely be looking else where for the work to be done and put in a written complaint to the manager or top dog of the dealership outlining your treatment and how this left you disheartened at the apparent lack of honesty and transparency - which is something you expected from a Subaru dealership team. I doubt that will do much but if you don’t tell them they’ll never know. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 5 hours ago, Daskuppler said: I'm getting quotes from 4 different Subaru specialty shops so hopefully something better comes up. If I could find better documentation on replacing the harness in this vehicle I might attempt it myself at this point. I’m sure you did this but consider asking them how well equipped they are at diagnosing potential wiring issues the dealership wasn’t keen on identifying. A lot of mechanics and shops aren’t into chasing wiring gremlins and will guess or simply won’t do it. One hurdle is I’m not sure the issue is confirmed ? You’re not positive it’s the harness are you? The FSM spells out each step and should be readily found for free online. I might have one I can send a link to I’m pretty sure this job is easy once the dash is removed as it exposes everything under/behind it Edited January 10 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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