Choosing between a 2010 EJ25 or 2012 FB25 Forester

[Stelcom66]

I asked a similar question a few years ago. I'm at a point now where I may make a change. I test dove a 2010 and 2012 Forester. The dealership claims to replace the head gaskets and timing belts on all EJ25s they sell, and reseal the cam carrier on FB25s if leaking. Due to the oil consumption situation of the FB25, I thought I wouldn't even test drive the 2012, but I did. It felt a bit more refined than the EJ25, and didn't sound like a the typical flat 4. I realize that's due to some design differences.

It seems rod bearing troubles are somewhat rare in the FB25, maybe because of the longer stroke and undersquare displacement? Most rod bearing failures I've read about are with the EJ25, some are turbos, some not. So, I could go with either I guess. I've owned many Subarus over the years, but haven't for a few years and may want to again. I wonder which, based on the experiences and expertise of many of those here whos opinions I value - would tend to be the better bet? If I got the EJ25 I'd be able to use the Fram PH3595 oil filter I still have in my garage. Both are Premiums, I like heated cloth seats, unique to Subaru in that era.

[forester2002s]

Personally, I would go for the 2010 EJ. That's because I do all my own maintenance, and the EJ is easy to work on. Replacing EJ headgaskets is doable for the DIY-type of owner.

Maybe the 2012 FB feels nicer/newer, and drives smoother/quieter; but if something goes wrong, it will be more difficult to work on.

And don't get me started about CAN-Bus. I think that both the 2010 EJ and the 2012 FB have CAN-Bus computers and wiring. A nightmare for the DIYer! If you want to get a headache, read this: CAN bus on Wikipedia

[Numbchux]

CANBUS was mandatory in all US vehicles since 2008 (most adopted it several years before that)

 

I think both engines have their advantages. The FB is less likely to need anything, but a bigger job to do (to do almost anything on the FB, you have to remove the timing chain cover and chains).

Take care of them, keep on top of the oil changes (I see VVT solenoids gummed up on both engines). Throw that Sham oil filter in the dump with the rest of the filthy cardboard and use a Tokyo Roki from the dealer, or WIX.

The EJ will leak oil externally. The FB will probably leak it and/or burn it. Neither car has a low oil level indicator (just pressure), so check the dipstick periodically, and they'll do fine.

[idosubaru]

If you care about resale get the newer one. If you care about simplicity the EJ25 is probably the way to go, just fewer "large" issues and the head gaskets are well known and not that difficult to deal with like oil consumption. 

I'd R&R all the timing gear though at 15 years old.  All new Subaru pulleys, belt, and tensioner.  Or at a minimum the belt and lower cogged idler (by a long shot the most likely to fail)

[Stelcom66]

Thank for the replies. I wouldn't be working on the engines, I respect those of you that do. I figured I might hear about that oil filter!

For the FB25 cam carrier seal leaks, is it enough to periodically just wipe the oil off? I heard the oil can land on certain sensors and cause trouble.
I've read where repairs are done out of warranty costing several thousand since it's an engine out repair. What are the consequences of not having
that reseal done? I've heard where 60k or so miles later, it can need to be done again.

Noted about the other parts. Resale isn't a concern as I'd (hopefully) be keeping it a long time, and not putting a lot of miles on.

Edited January 19 by Stelcom66

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

For the FB25 cam carrier seal leaks, is it enough to periodically just wipe the oil off? I heard the oil can land on certain sensors and cause trouble.
I've read where repairs are done out of warranty costing several thousand since it's an engine out repair. What are the consequences of not having
that reseal done? I've heard where 60k or so miles later, it can need to be More 

Yeah just wipe it or forget it. 
wvebtually it leaks enough to blow onto hot exhaust and smoke and smell and scare the !&&!?$ out of you. Or you run low on oil and wreck the motor. Keep checking level and the smoking (or not) levels will suggest how bad they are.  

[Stelcom66]

8 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Yeah just wipe it or forget it. 
wvebtually it leaks enough to blow onto hot exhaust and smoke and smell and scare the !&&!?$ out of you. Or you run low on oil and wreck the motor. Keep checking level and the smoking (or not) levels will suggest how bad they are.  

Sounds like big trouble at some point down the road even if adding/checking oil. 

[Numbchux]

We've seen them get bad enough to wreck the AF sensor, because that's right under the RF corner of the engine.

[Daskuppler]

My wife and I have a 2014 Forester. Hands down the worst car we have ever owned. That being said, we probably got a lemon.

That being said, Subaru denied our claim on oil consumption, had the dealership replace the block at cost... We had two blocks fail (both rod bearings) within 500 miles.

CV axles went out within 80k miles

Occupant detection mat went out in passenger seat

Driver heated seats went out(havw to replace the entire seat to fix)

AC compressor went out in under 100k

Radio went out at 40k

Neutral safety switch went out

And last, but not least, bulkhead Wiring Harness failed (I think the damage was a result from the engine removal).

Currently waiting for the CVT to go as we're at 142k, but so far it's been okay...

I would buy the 2010.

 

[Stelcom66]

5 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

My wife and I have a 2014 Forester. Hands down the worst car we have ever owned. That being said, we probably got a lemon.

That being said, Subaru denied our claim on oil consumption, had the dealership replace the block at cost... We had two blocks fail (both rod bearings) within 500 miles......

Holy smokes! And one of the most surprising was the rod bearings. Maybe a manufacturing defect as I didn't think that was a situation on the FB25s. That was my concern with the EJ25 in the long run, but I know they're capable of over 200k miles with the usual maintenance,

Another thing about the FB25s, and I don't know if it applies to the 2011-13 Foresters - but I've seen many reports of insufficient heating with 2014+ Foresters. Being in a cols climate, that's what I always liked about my former EJ25 Subarus - they were good winter weather vehicles, Heated cloth seats are great, and my preference over leather. Heat about was good as well, It's said the FB25 is more efficient, therefore less heat generated. I haven't seen the 2011-13 models mentioned as lacking heat.

So much for the EJ25! Sold in a week or less. 

Edited January 19 by Stelcom66
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[Daskuppler]

1 hour ago, Stelcom66 said:

Holy smokes! And one of the most surprising was the rod bearings. Maybe a manufacturing defect as I didn't think that was a situation on the FB25s. That was my concern with the EJ25 in the long run, but I know they're capable of over 200k miles with the usual maintenance,

Another thing about the FB25s, and I don't know if it applies to the 2011-13 Foresters - but I've seen many reports of insufficient heating with 2014+ Foresters. Being in a cols climate, that's what I always liked about my former EJ25 Subarus - they were good winter weather vehicles, Heated cloth seats are great, and my preference over leather. Heat about was good as well, It's said the FB25 is more efficient, therefore less heat generated. I haven't seen the 2011-13 models mentioned as lacking heat.

So much for the EJ25! Sold in a week or less. 

I'm sure it was a bad batch of bearings, but still an issue. Heat has never been a problem for us, the heater works very well. We. Live in Colorado and are frequently. Out in sub zero temperatures. My biggest complaint is the computer controls over engine HP and torque. When the engine is cold, you are a road hazard and can't get out of your own way. It's very annoying because the power is limited regardless of what you do, even in an emergency.

[Stelcom66]

2 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

I'm sure it was a bad batch of bearings, but still an issue. Heat has never been a problem for us, the heater works very well. We. Live in Colorado and are frequently. Out in sub zero temperatures. My biggest complaint is the computer controls over engine HP and torque. When the engine is cold, you are a road hazard and can't get out of your own way. It's very annoying because the power is limited regardless of what you do, even in an emergency.

That's interesting, some say the heat is fine like yours. And if you're below zero this time of year often, that's even colder than here in Conn. First I heard of the computer actually limiting engine power when cold. There's a 2014 Forester Premium nearby with under 100k miles on it. That's low for me! I may check it out. Also an Outback around the same year. 

 

Edited January 20 by Stelcom66

[Daskuppler]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:13 PM, Stelcom66 said:

That's interesting, some say the heat is fine like yours. And if you're below zero this time of year often, that's even colder than here in Conn. First I heard of the computer actually limiting engine power when cold. There's a 2014 Forester Premium nearby with under 100k miles on it. That's low for me! I may check it out. Also an Outback around the same year. 

 

Honestly, most of our complaints are part of having a new car. They aren't what they used to be, and we bought this Forester expecting it to still be a Subaru. They just aren't the same.

Apart from the oil consumption, which is about 1qt per oil change in a good block, the FB engine has been fine for us. We run very hard (we drive over the Rockies from Denver to Utah 2-3 times a month and are usually loaded down pretty good. It gets good fuel economy even loaded and going over the mountains. Power sucks, but it's a NA Subaru so it is what it is.

I personally like the CVT, but 5hey are notoriously weak and prone I failure around 150k. We have changed the CVT fluid once per year (about every 20k) since we got the car in 2017. It has been problem nearly problem free so far.. apart from the two times it didn't adjust ratios and bounced off the rev limiter... Both times were going uphill and passing at 80+mph. Fluid changes require a code reader capable of reading live data. Front differential changes are a nightmare.

The vehicle is very capable off-road for it's stance. A good driver will go many places.

Parts are expensive, and per a recent interaction with Subaru, parts will begin to be discontinued this year and have generally been difficult to source. Could be COVID fallout as well.

[Stelcom66]

11 hours ago, Daskuppler said:

Honestly, most of our complaints are part of having a new car. They aren't what they used to be, and we bought this Forester expecting it to still be a Subaru. They just aren't the same....

It sounds like for now your Forester is a capable vehicle, well suited for your environment. A big concern is what you mentioned about future parts availability, and the CVT as it ages. When it didn't adjust ratios when going uphill it seemed like extreme cases.

I drove a 2014 Forester yesterday. When I got to the dealership is was running, found out because the battery was dead and it was jump started. Maybe a concern, but it's been very cold here lately and the salesman said it had been over a month since it was started. But - I've heard about parasitic drains in 2014 Foresters and Outbacks. Although with many other newer vehicles as well.

Like you, I didn't notice any situation with the heat. It was a good day to test it, during the drive it was 19º. Not as good as my Tacoma and especially 2002 Silverado. but with the heat from the vents and the heated seat it was up to the task. 

I was fine with the CVT operation. Several years ago I had a company issued Jeep Patriot with the CVT and liked it, as I did in the 2014 Forester. The Jeep's was a Jatco, same as those used in Nissans. I believe most of the fleet experienced CVT failure or trouble at 110-120k miles.

Yes, the newer Subarus are not the same. The F25 sounds like a conventional engine, I guess something due to the design of the exhaust manifolds being now of equal length unlike the EJ25. Over the years I've had 6 Subarus, 8 counting those my sons owned with my name on the title, My last 2 were EJ25s, prior to that the 2.2L, 1.8L and 1.6L(?) in my first one, a 1980 GL. 

I also drove a similar year Toyota Rav4. Not considering reliability, I preferred the Forester. So, both brands are in the running for me, Later this year my daily commute may be eliminated or reduced, so accumulating many miles will not be the case going forward.

Thanks for posting the experiences and information. I'll need to consider a couple of concerns.
 

 

Edited January 21 by Stelcom66
added info

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, Stelcom66 said:

It 

I also drove a similar year Toyota Rav4.

 

Those are great vehicles. Reliability and cost of ownership has been top notch. 

[Numbchux]

11-14 Foresters did not have an oil level switch/warning light. It was very common to see catastrophic failure on those, as they typically got driven until they burned so much that they lost pressure.

Modern cars have so many modules that stay active even with the key off, it's pretty crucial that they get driven.

[Stelcom66]

On 1/21/2024 at 4:00 PM, idosubaru said:

 

Those are great vehicles. Reliability and cost of ownership has been top notch. 

The Rav4 was nice, but if reliability of the Forester was equal to the RAV4, I'd pick the Forester.

7 hours ago, Numbchux said:

11-14 Foresters did not have an oil level switch/warning light. It was very common to see catastrophic failure on those, as they typically got driven until they burned so much that they lost pressure.

Modern cars have so many modules that stay active even with the key off, it's pretty crucial that they get driven.

Oh boy - so noted, The oil level switch - does that turn the engine off if the level is too low? My 2002 Silverado, not being modern can go for weeks without being started in winter weather, then start fine like the other night.

I heard maybe in 2018 there was a redesign in the FB25 that supposedly stopped or reduced oil consumption?

Edited January 23 by Stelcom66

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, Stelcom66 said:

The Rav4 was nice, but if reliability of the Forester was equal to the RAV4, I'd pick the Forester.

Oh boy - so noted, The oil level switch - does that turn the engine off if the level is too low? My 2002 Silverado, not being modern can go for weeks without being started in winter weather, then start fine like the other night.

I heard maybe in 2018 there was a redesign in the FB25 that supposedly stopped or reduced oil consumption?

It does not turn the engine off.  That would be a massive liability to just have an engine shut off unexpectedly.  

Subaru's recall for excessive oil consumption due to oil control rings was up to 2015 Foresters.  If you assume that means later ones don't have issues then a 2018 is good.  I usually encourage people to aim for 2017/208's. 

[Stelcom66]

8 hours ago, idosubaru said:

It does not turn the engine off.  That would be a massive liability to just have an engine shut off unexpectedly.  

Subaru's recall for excessive oil consumption due to oil control rings was up to 2015 Foresters.  If you assume that means later ones don't have issues then a 2018 is good.  I usually encourage people to aim for 2017/208's. 

Ok didn't think the engine would turn off, I thought that could be dangerous. So noted re: 2017-18 Foresters. That coincides with other recommendations that I've seen.

[Numbchux]

Yea, level switch on Imprezas and Leg/OBKs was just for a warning light. But it got people to come in to the dealer and complain long before the engine blew up. I don't like that it comes on when the engine is about .5 quart low, but it might have saved me a couple engines in my life....

Yea, the bulletin and warranty extension was for -14 cars, and a few 15s. But we've done plenty of newer ones. It's certainly improved, though.

Edited January 23 by Numbchux