Bobs93Legacy Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 (edited) My 93 Legacy just suddenly developed a weird issue. It starts fine, but from a dead stop, when you try to accelerate it won't or if it does it does so VERY slowly, until it hits about 1500 RPM. Above 1500 RPMs it runs and drives OK. But it is nearly impossible to get it to rev up from its idle speed of around 700 RPMs to around 1500 RPMs. I've done a little research and figured out that it has a MAP sensor and a MAF sensor, but no throttle position sensor. Is that correct? In my way of thinking it can't be a fuel issue (fuel pump, fuel filter, injectors) because it it were something like that throttle response would drop off at higher RPMs - not improve at higher RPMs. Seems like I read somewhere that it might possibly be an O2 sensor failure? So has anyone else experienced this issue? If so, what did it turn out to be? MAF, MAP, or O2 sensor issue? Something else? Edited October 28 by Bobs93Legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted October 29 Author Share Posted October 29 No help for a newbie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 Tough call. And I’ve seen where a failing due pump does show some of what you’ve mentioned. But so would a cracked sensor or loose connection. I use my 94 Legacy as a daily beater. Can’t say I’ve really had this issue on those cars 90-94 Bit this also sounds similar to what I’m getting right now with my wife’s 2006. We have a broken cam follower sensor connector. So it’s going into default mode randomly but if I push my foot into the pedal I can get the throttle to act as it should and actually drive normally - until the next fit it throws. Just my thoughts so you’re not alone in the wilderness here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted October 29 Author Share Posted October 29 4 hours ago, moosens said: Tough call. And I’ve seen where a failing due pump does show some of what you’ve mentioned. But so would a cracked sensor or loose connection. I use my 94 Legacy as a daily beater. Can’t say I’ve really had this issue on those cars 90-94 Bit this also sounds similar to what I’m getting right now with my wife’s 2006. We have a broken cam follower sensor connector. So it’s going into default mode randomly but if I push my foot into the pedal I can get the throttle to act as it should and actually drive normally - until the next fit it throws. Just my thoughts so you’re not alone in the wilderness here. FWIW, I grew up working on vehicles that had carburetors and mechanical diaphragm pumps for fuel delivery, and a distributor with points & condensers for spark. This 93 Legacy was built when those types of mechanical systems were being replaced by computer controlled "engine management systems" - but before there was any kind of standardization (like OBDII). That makes diagnosis of this kind of issue REALLY challenging for an old-school guy like me. This sort of driveability problem isn't simple, like rebuilding the carb or resetting the points. BUT, at the same time it isn't a simple matter of connecting it to a diagnostic tool and letting the onboard computer tell you what is wrong either. SO, any help or advice the experts on this board can provide would be VERY much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 I’m the same guy as you. Vintage 1963 youngest of three and middle brother was a mechanic before they called them technicians. There’s online service manuals out there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Even it's old you can still pull codes from the computer. Any Check engine light on? Clean the grounds and connectors. Be very systematic in your troubleshooting, documenting what you do and if the fault changes with any maintenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 1 Author Share Posted November 1 First, I found MAF sensors and MAP sensors on a couple of auto parts sites - but no throttle position sensor (TPS) - which made me think there isn't one. Does Subaru call it something else? Because there is definitely a sensor/rheostat on the shaft of the throttle body. So, I did some troubleshooting yesterday. Unplugged the MAF sensor (on airbox front corner of the passenger side of the engine compartment) and it died instantly Unplugged the MAP sensor (on center of firewall?) and it died instantly Unplugged the sensor on the throttle body (TPS?) and it kept running, but the throttle issue stayed the same. Plugged it back in and the throttle response issue seemed to go away - but only for a short time. I replaced that sensor with one I pulled off of a parts car I have, but the throttle response issue remained. Though I don't know that the replacement part was any good either. I used a pick to bend/tighten up the female connectors in the plug to the sensor on the throttle body, but that didn't seem to help either. I'm really stumped on this one. HEEEEEEELLLLLLP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 2 Share Posted November 2 (edited) The MAF is required to run the engine. The “MAP” sensor as you call it is the ignitor, also needed to run the engine. The sensor in the throttle body is the TPS. They can get dirty contacts. It’s worth opening them up and cleaning the tracks that the fingers follow. Once replacing it make sure you’re following the procedure to have it properly installed. The MAF could need cleaning (VERY carefully!) or replacing. Also look at the knock sensor, back of engine near the bell housing on the LHS, got a 10mm bolt head holding it in place. It’s black and probably cracked by now. This won’t usually throw a code if it’s got an issue until it’s really proper dead. If you’ve pulled plugs off items when the engine is running you’ll have to reset the ECU if you want to accurately read codes. The 30min “battery dance” will clear the ECU memory of new and old codes. Start the engine again and let it idle up to temp. The idle speed will fluctuate - this is the ECU setting the idle etc. DO NOT touch the throttle once the engine is started until it’s up to temp. Drive it like you stole it and see if the issue persists. The issue will return, then check codes and start with the sensor the codes point to. I hope this helps. EFI systems are nothing to be scared of if you’re coming from the dark ages of carbs and dizzys. They will generally give you a starting point with a code or two Cheers Bennie Edited November 2 by el_freddo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 2 Author Share Posted November 2 (edited) Thanks Bennie. Just curious why I can't find a TPS listing on Autozone, Oreillys, Napaonline, eBay, or even Rockauto. Does Subaru use another name for it? Or is it a dealer-only item? Edited November 2 by Bobs93Legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosens Posted November 2 Share Posted November 2 Random parts numbers form the 95/96 2.2 Legacy catalog if this helps at all. The part that bolts onto the passenger side of the TB is called a Throtte Sensor - yup - we all call it the throttle position sensor, but who are we? Part number 22633AA110 and that’s for cars spit out from the factory from 03/94 through 05/95 and also 06/95 - going forward at time of print. Good luck with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 4 Author Share Posted November 4 (edited) moosens - thanks for the info. Unfortunately, since mine was built before 03/94 (1993 model) it doesn't look like the one I come up with when I search on those part numbers. That part looks like it has a "tab" that engages a slot in the throttle body shaft. Mine has a round shaft that is flat on one side and the sensor has a hole shaped like the end of the shaft - it slips ONTO the shaft itself. Imdew - sorry I missed answering your question. It isn't showing a check engine light - but it is possible that the bulb could be burned out. FWIW, I found a video that shows there are two little black connector under the dash to the right of the steering column that can be plugged together and make the check engine light "blink" the codes. I haven't tried that yet because I'm out of town until the 15th. That will be my next step. Hopefully the CEL bulb isn't burned out! Edited November 5 by Bobs93Legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 On most models, all the warning lamps are tested during start-up: - turn the key to the ON position (just prior to turning the key to START the engine); the display should show all warning lamps illuminated, including the check-engine-lamp; this verifies which warning lamps actually work (or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 6 Author Share Posted November 6 On 11/4/2024 at 10:04 AM, forester2002s said: On most models, all the warning lamps are tested during start-up: - turn the key to the ON position (just prior to turning the key to START the engine); the display should show all warning lamps illuminated, including the check-engine-lamp; this verifies which warning lamps actually work (or not). That's a helpful tip - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 6 Share Posted November 6 (edited) Pls delete Edited November 6 by el_freddo Pls delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 6 Share Posted November 6 On 11/5/2024 at 4:04 AM, forester2002s said: On most models, all the warning lamps are tested during start-up: - turn the key to the ON position (just prior to turning the key to START the engine); the display should show all warning lamps illuminated, including the check-engine-lamp; this verifies which warning lamps actually work (or not). ^ this. Easiest way to ensure the check engine (CEL) light is working. And yes, those black plugs are the two you connect to read the codes. Such an awesome way to read codes for the DIYer! I found part number 22633AA060 for the TPS. It’s listed as “Sensor Assembly - Throttle”. This part is from a 1992 AUDM VIN search. This is also the same part for a 1992 USDM SS Legacy turbo (2.2L) and the 1993 AUDM RS turbo (2L). So I’d safely say that this TPS is used across the board on the Gen1s. I haven’t looked into the Gen2 Liberty/Legacy. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 (edited) el_freddo - thanks for the part number info. VERY helpful. A Google search for 22633AA060 pulls up several links - but unfortunately most of them say the part is "obsolete" or "unavailable". I was able to find a couple of places that sell that specific part. It seems that this particular TPS may have only been used a very limited number of 1993 Legacy models produced. As a result they are VERY expensive. Just my luck I guess 🙁 I'm still not 100% clear on what you previously referred to as the "30 minute battery dance" to clear the ECU codes. Can you tell me a little more about that? Sorry for asking what may seem like such basic newbie questions, but this is the first early 90's Subaru I've ever had to troubleshoot. Thanks for all your help and advice guys! Edited November 9 by Bobs93Legacy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 Disconnect the negative battery lead. 30 minutes late hook it back up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 Thanks for clarifying that Imdew. I thought that disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes was what that meant, but it is very helpful to have that assumption confirmed. FWIW, I've never seen or heard of it taking anywhere near that long for a computer to reset when the power is disconnected. I'm guessing Subaru must have put some kind of capacitor-based memory backup in their ECUs for them to require such a long power-down-reset cycle. Most computers will reset in under a minute when disconnected from their power source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 Bob you’re probably right about that timing of the battery dance. I guess someone was playing it safe to ensure codes are cleared. 30 mins is a good time to boil a kettle and have a cuppa tea & a bikky No worries on that part number. From what I can see it’s not just the 1993 model that uses it. I should find a VIN for a Gen2 and compare, I bet it’s the same though! Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvu Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 Looking at the TPS, I haven't seen those old square ones first hand, but it looks like you can take apart the cover on those? They are probably just potentiometers. if you can take apart the cover, spray on some electronics contact cleaner. It should work again at least until you can source a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 Correct, they can be pulled apart and cleaned. I had one cleaned up by a mate and it worked well. I wasn’t there to see the process, I believe it wasn’t that difficult. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobs93Legacy Posted Wednesday at 12:42 AM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 12:42 AM (edited) Well, I'm back in town and will be taking another crack at getting it running on Thursday afternoon (it's over at a friends house on the other side of town right now). On your advice, I had him disconnect the battery so the codes will all be cleared by the time I get over there to try and get it running. At this point I'm thinking it isn't the TPS since I've already tried swapping one off my spare parts car and it made no real difference. I'm thinking that if the MAF is bad then it wouldn't throttle up properly because it wouldn't be correctly measuring the increased airflow - and therefore the ECU wouldn't supply the right amount of fuel to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio. Logically, that would match the symptoms I've seen so far. But if I'm wrong about that or missing something, please feel free to correct my troubleshooting process. So, based on that theory, today, I pulled the whole top of the airbox assembly (including the MAF) off my parts car to make it quick and easy to swap out the MAF. That will be my next step in trying to troubleshoot this issue. If swapping the top half of the airbox and MAF doesn't help, the next thing I'll try is to swap out the knock sensor (thanks for that suggestion el_freddo). I just watched a u-tube DIY video that showed me exactly where it is located and how to replace it. I'll pull the knock sensor off my parts car tomorrow and take it with me on Thursday. If swapping the MAF doesn't solve the problem then the knock sensor is next. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice guys! You've given me some really good pointers on what to check. The absolute worst-case scenario is that if I can't figure it out & fix it, I'll use my AAA membership to have it towed home where I can work on it at my leisure. Stay tuned - I'll post back to this thread with updates on my progress and what I find. Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions... Edited Wednesday at 08:50 PM by Bobs93Legacy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now