89Ru Posted December 30, 2024 Share Posted December 30, 2024 2008 outback wagon 2.5L auto 218k miles. Hit a deer a month ago and still working on getting the car back in shape. Damage mainly to radiator (still functional), condenser (also functional). Car was running fine and has logged over 400 miles since the accident even with the damage (mostly highway just limping home) and a couple of trips around town for repair work (drained the r134, no I'm not running the hvac). Today I took off both accessory belts, the crank pulley (bumped the starter x1), and the cracked timing belt covers from the deer impact. Was doing some topside work (power steering connector cracked) and had taken off the MAF connector to remove the airbox. Nothing too complicated. Reconnected the MAF and drove a mile without any accessory belts or TB covers. Air guide shattered at the deer impact so have been running without it, just a wide open slot with an intact air filter in the filter box. Yes the dash battery light is on but just driving a mile not a big deal. Car had been starting just fine. Battery is fairly new. After a right turn, car died and would not start. Just cranks, strong cranking and sounds like good compression. Someone stops to help and gives me a battery charge with one of those electronic fast chargers. Doesn't start. I checked the engine codes and saw a few, but forgot to screenshot it. What I remember is a "heater circuit" and "air temp" code. Plus a MAF code probably from disconnecting the MAF connector on the air box. Its about 60 degrees here outside today. Car wasn't totally warmed up after driving a mile but probably close. Thought maybe the ECU was confused about several things, the weird pressures from not having that plastic air guide. Running without any headlights or bumper or grill so there's nothing buffering the air flow into the MAF. So I tried resetting it by disconnecting the battery for about 5 minutes. Still wouldn't start. Getting 11.5 volts on the battery during cranking which I thought was enough, but tried jumping it anyway. Still no start. Outside air temp sensor could be damaged, is unprotected and maybe got hit by the deer, but it doesn't look damaged. Will try swapping this out. Towed the car home using the stock front end tow point in neutral going about 20 mph or less, about a mile, after reading the owner's manual about towing. No new codes after a few start attempts after the battery disconnect. In fact all the codes got reset. Going to try again in the morning after the car cools down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forester2002s Posted December 30, 2024 Share Posted December 30, 2024 Could be lack of fuel? Either low tank level, or something else related to fuel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted December 30, 2024 Author Share Posted December 30, 2024 8 hours ago, forester2002s said: Could be lack of fuel? Either low tank level, or something else related to fuel? Could be. Didn't start again this morning. Fuel gauge just over 1/4 tank. Going to check fuses and see if I can hear the fuel pump kick on when I turn the key. Car is on a flat surface. Will try loosening the fuel cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvu Posted December 30, 2024 Share Posted December 30, 2024 (edited) Does it start without the maf connected? Try disconnecting battery to clear all maf learning, unplug the maf and keep it disconnected, plug back in the battery and start it. At very least it should start the engine in failsafe limp mode. If it starts again, the problem is likely sensors. If it's not starting then, it's more basic mechanical: fuel, spark, timing... Edited December 30, 2024 by nvu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted December 31, 2024 Author Share Posted December 31, 2024 7 hours ago, nvu said: Does it start without the maf connected? Try disconnecting battery to clear all maf learning, unplug the maf and keep it disconnected, plug back in the battery and start it. At very least it should start the engine in failsafe limp mode. If it starts again, the problem is likely sensors. If it's not starting then, it's more basic mechanical: fuel, spark, timing... Yes! But only after I added a bit of gas. Ha! Got the same CEL codes after disconnecting the MAF (air temp P0113, MAF P0112) so its not a sensor after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted December 31, 2024 Author Share Posted December 31, 2024 16 hours ago, forester2002s said: Could be lack of fuel? Either low tank level, or something else related to fuel? Uhh yes actually! Low tank. Put about a gallon in and after a few ignition cycles it started up. Runs fine without accessory belts, MAF connector, etc. Stalled when I goosed the throttle but probably because of all the codes, etc. Weird since the gauge is not low and the fuel light isn't lit. So, dive into the fuel level mechanism inside the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted December 31, 2024 Share Posted December 31, 2024 could be. I've had some good luck with fuel tank additive to clean the sensors. It's a resister on the level arm. How's it work when you fill it? Gallons added, add up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvu Posted December 31, 2024 Share Posted December 31, 2024 (edited) You mentioned a lot of things got crushed in the airbox area, check the plastic piping from maf to throttle body for cracks, etc... check for vacuum leaks too. Did your year come with plastic intake manifolds? That might be suspect too. Edited December 31, 2024 by nvu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 On 12/30/2024 at 10:20 PM, lmdew said: could be. I've had some good luck with fuel tank additive to clean the sensors. It's a resister on the level arm. How's it work when you fill it? Gallons added, add up? The fuel gauge tracks upwards with small amounts of added fuel, 1 gallon up a little, two gallons, up a little more than before. Unfortunately starting isn't reliable even with more fuel. Still cranks a lot, sputters. If it starts it dies a few minutes afterwards. So I'm now suspecting fuel pump assembly. All this started after I pulled off the alt belt, so voltage to the fuel pump is less. Maybe less voltage is causing a problem, higher current, overheating maybe, browning out. I have a bit of front end work left to fix from the deer damage so the belt remains off for convenience. So I pulled the fuel pump out. It looks to be OEM. Fuel in the tank is definitely not 3 gallons (what I have added in by hand). Fuel gauge is now reading just over half a tank and there is a lot of gas in the tank which probably agrees with the reported level, just a guess. Anyone know how this generation of OEM fuel pumps typically fail? There is a little sort of loose piece of foil in the lower plastic plumbing of the pump housing. Not sure if that is a failure point. Might swap my 2007 outback fuel pump just to compare if they are compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 On 12/30/2024 at 11:06 PM, nvu said: You mentioned a lot of things got crushed in the airbox area, check the plastic piping from maf to throttle body for cracks, etc... check for vacuum leaks too. Did your year come with plastic intake manifolds? That might be suspect too. Quick look doesn't see any piping damage. Pulled out the MAF and looks intact. Intake is still aluminum for 2008. Still keeping this in mind as the only times it has started is with the MAF connector off. I continue to find bits of shrapnel in the engine bay, grill plastic and metal fibers from what is left of the alternator belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 (edited) Here's a pic of the strange piece of foil on the fuel pump https://imgur.com/gallery/vDzDdMQ/comment/2436129451 And another couple https://imgur.com/gallery/vDzDdMQ/comment/2436129563 https://imgur.com/gallery/vDzDdMQ/comment/2436130359 Edited January 2 by 89Ru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvu Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Just occurred to me there's an intake air temp sensor on the maf. The codes are pointing at the maf, did they clear after you plugged it abck in and reset the ecu? On my 2003 impreza, I've had the maf heater wire cook itself brittle before. Cut open the wiring loom and see if any individual wires have discolored. With my case, the car never threw any codes, but the plastic tab was broken off for a while. Only found it after splicing in a new pigtail, the burnt area was about 6" before where there was a cable tie on the loom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 On 1/1/2025 at 9:24 PM, nvu said: Just occurred to me there's an intake air temp sensor on the maf. The codes are pointing at the maf, did they clear after you plugged it abck in and reset the ecu? On my 2003 impreza, I've had the maf heater wire cook itself brittle before. Cut open the wiring loom and see if any individual wires have discolored. With my case, the car never threw any codes, but the plastic tab was broken off for a while. Only found it after splicing in a new pigtail, the burnt area was about 6" before where there was a cable tie on the loom. Thanks. Yes, codes cleared after reset. Swapped out the stock fuel pump from my 07. Started right up. Runs without cutting out. There's a fuel temp sensor in the fuel pump, flagged a code when I disconnected the cable. The 07 pump doesn't have the foil scrap. Going to remove it and give the suspect 08 pump a go in the 07. Oddly enough the three little plastic feet on the 08 pump were stuck to the bottom of the gas tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted Sunday at 06:39 PM Author Share Posted Sunday at 06:39 PM 08 running the 07 pump doing fine after 500 miles. 08 stock pump failure could be coincidence/foil scrap/or running without alt belt, which is probably just general good sense to avoid in the future. 07 running 08 pump also fine after driving around town for a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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