Well Guys and Gals, it's been fun...

[duane b]

We sold our 96 Legacy wagon last night, almost exactly a year from when we bought it. I hope the couple that bought it are happy with it. I told them about this discussion board if they had any questions.

 

I can't say I'm sorry to see it go, though. I think I lost a little something for subaru owning a Legacy. I've owned 3 mid-eighties GL wagons before this and I used to love subes but I gotta say the Legacy doesn't compare in quality or toughness. I don't think Subaru makes a 200K trouble free car anymore. With all the headgasket problems and AT tranny problems of the mid to late nineties (which my car had both) and Subaru's refusal to address them I don't consider Subaru part of the "big-3" Japanese automakers anymore. Subaru used to have a niche market way back when but now it seems everything they do is reactionary. When other car companies started maked 6 cylinder motors as an option it took Subaru 30 years to finally make one. When other car companies are addressing hybrid options, Subaru so far has no intention of offering anything of the kind. In fact I have to wonder about Subaru's attitude towards the environment. They've never addressed the oil leaking seal problems that their engines have been prone to for over thirty years now. "That's just the way they are" is no excuse. Their cars just don't get as good of gas mileage as other cars. The best our legacy ever got was 27mpg on a straight and level freeway with a tail wind. Now they offer a 300hp AWD sportscar for tearing up and down wilderness roads. What other good are they for? Subaru is not rough and tumble off-road vehicle anymore. Even in Outback or Forester trim their angle of approach is way to shallow to ever be useful off-road and you wouldn't want to scrape the trim pieces off, it would cost an arm and a leg to repair. As far as the 2005 models, they look like something that's been done already. The profile of the legacy sedan looks just like the camry, the accord, even the mazda 6. The wagon looks suspiciously like a volvo cross country. The older Subes were definately unique and civilians didn't have to look at the badge to ID them. As far as performance goes, I'm sorry but a regular legacy just doesn't have it. We bought a Nissan Altima the same year as the legacy and it is WAAAY more fun to drive even with an AT. And quality is better too. Our VW cabby is tons more fun to drive than a legacy. It feels like it has way more pep and tighter handling then the wagon with 32 more hp. In fact I always felt a little humble driving the legacy wagon.

 

Don't get me wrong. I've said this before; If Subaru offered a new version of the GL wagon again I would probably buy one in a heart beat. At least I knew what they stood for, a tough utilitarian wagon that has a ton of uses. Not a luxury car full of electronic crap (including the AT tranny) that will probably break before the warranty is even up. Maybe if they offered part time AWD I might be tempted to try it again. I mean we used the AWD once since we bought the car. Most people just don't need AWD all the time. I mean if I lived in Atlanta or Phoenix or Texas or Socal, I would probably never NEED it. But these are some of the biggest markets for Subaru.I think the driveline is under such stress when in AWD on dry pavement, the clutchpack can't possibly last long enough.

 

I don't know, maybe it's the GM take-over of Subaru that's driving the quality into the ground. They did the same thing to Isuzu. And sure Subaru is a great selling car. But most people know that GM quality sucks yet Chevy is still one of the best selling cars around. Coincidence? I think not.

 

Good luck everybody! Thanks for all the info you've shared. I'm out.

 

D.

[SubieFinn]

Well Duane,

 

I hope you check in every once in a while to see what's what. I have had my share of Legacy's oil leaks too. I am glad you are enjoying your VW!

 

 

 

See you in the funny pages!

 

Todd

[Ranger83]

I don't think Subaru makes a 200K trouble free car anymore.

Well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

[Sweet82]

I'd admit Subaru has it's share of problems. It's not quite what it was years ago with the GL. I'd line up to buy another GL too! Mine served me well for the last 22 years and I expect it to serve me well for another!

 

The newer Subies seem to lack some of the toughness that the old ones had but I still enjoy driving my Forester. There isn't much out there that fills that gap in the automotive industry. No car or car line is going to be perfect for ever. Good cars will come and go. Hopefully Subaru will earn back it's former reputation of being a tough go for ever 4wd car.

 

My .02

Glenn

82 SubaruHummer

01 Forester

[theotherskip]

In fact I have to wonder about Subaru's attitude towards the environment. ... Now they offer a 300hp AWD sportscar for tearing up and down wilderness roads.

i was originally drawn to the subaru for taking a stand and making alternatives to suv's. but i was very saddened to find that they were raising the ground clearance of the foresters in order to gain truck status to get out of the fuel efficency standards...

 

i also thought one of their older commercials sent very mixed messages. the one where the guy is taking a landscape photo with a view camera, then some guy in a suv rolls up and snaps a picture with a disposable out the window and clicks a shot. the photographer seems annoyed at the suv driver for wrecking his "solitude". the next thing they show is the subaru tearing up a dirt road to find more "solitude" and another place to take pictures. seems very mixed.

[earthworm]

I cannot believe that any sane man takes any commercial seriously ! Its all so damn silly !

It is the citizens responsibility, working thru their governments to protect it, not Subarus, nor GMs..

 

This is a good forum, however, what people say and think is most interesting.

 

I have tried out a '95 Leg AWD(132K miles), and I believe the clutch pacs were presenting "troubles". The power transition was not smooth and even at low speeds - something like a "grabby" clutch. This did not bother the PO, or so he stated.

[DerFahrer]

Duane, to be honest, I think you'll find the Subaru to be a lot more reliable than the VW :-\

[northguy]

If you are that enamored with the old school subbies (as I am), buy one and restore it. They are certainly cheaper to maintain than new ones.

[carfreak85]

Now they offer a 300hp AWD sportscar for tearing up and down wilderness roads.

Go drive that car or even the WRX and you will know right away what Subaru's intentions were!

[Ranger83]

The newer Subies seem to lack some of the toughness that the old ones had but I still enjoy driving my Forester.

Where do you live? Here in MA and the Northeast old Subarus are rusted to bits. They're cramped, slow, rough riding, and odd looking to boot.

 

I told the folks buying one of our 97 OBW about every conceivable problem they could have. Their answer, "It's still our best choice." They also own an Audi A4 and Subaru maintenance is cheap in contrast and the Sub is mch better in snow on their 1/4 long hilly, curvy driveway. I've owned two VW's and an Audi and yes they drive well and yes, they still have the same electrical problems they've had since the 70's. And head gasket failures or not, they still don't last as long as the Subaru four - one of mine needed a valve job at 74,000 and another needed valves and rings at not much over 100K.

 

In five years everyone here is going to be talking about how expensive and complex the new Subs are (and what great performance they have) while others are lamenting the simple, reliable 95-99 OB.

 

"All cars break down. A good car breaks down conveniently."

[gbianchi]

and.................you can own 5 Subarus for the price of 1 of those other used cars, thats what I'm doing

[PAezb]

Duane,

 

VW are fine vehicles, but not without their own problems. Watch out for electrical/power equipment issues. Also note the reliability ratings history in sources like Consumer Reports (yes, I know, taken with a grain of salt) but I believe these ratings generally tend to be accurrate.

 

Hybrid technology is still a bit early in proven worth in my book. The demand for these cars has driven the price up. I've talk to people who own them, and while they like/love their vehicles, they have repeatedly stated they do not meet the gas milage ratings they advertise - but still better than non-hybrid models. And watch the cost-of-ownership rise when it comes time to perform powertrain maintenance and battery replacement out of warranty.

 

As for Chevy, I test drove both the Equinox and Malibu Maxx and there is no comparison, in my opinion, to the fit & finish, powertrain smoothness, drivability, and overall quality to the new Subaru's which are much better. I also have friends who own and drive various Chevy trucks. While I think they would still stand behind their choice in vehicle brand, you could get them started if you ask them what problems they have had with their vehicles...

 

With the above said, I would probably agree with you that Subie's today may not be as tough as those in the late 80's.

But they have evolved into more refined, better handling, and fun-to-drive vehicles (if you haven't already, take a 2005 GT or Outback XT for a test drive). I too, would prefer simpler electronics and controls, just for the sake of reliability.

I also have to admit I like the modern touches on my 2005 OBW XT. You'll all have to ask my opinion again on what I think of this car in years 4 thru 10. Time will tell.

 

Evidently, Subaru has determined the market demand for today and produces it's products accordingly - not always to the liking of it's long time loyal customer base. I doubt there are any vehicles today, including some of the big trucks, that can go 200K miles without spending some money for major repairs or hassling with smaller annoyances along the way. Yes, I'm sure some of you have newer vehicles that have or will have well beyond 200K on them - with proper maintenance and repairs. Some may/will be better than others, but I have to tell ya, after researching new vehicles and talking to many owners for over 2 years, all vehicles have issues, and even with the more popular brands/models, these issues tend to even out between them.

 

Anyway, enjoy your VW(s) - they're nice vehicles.

 

Paul

[ststephen]

Just have to add my $0.02 here. Being a long time fan of Subaru's, 1980's models mostly, I have to agree. The new VW's are not the VW's of old, just like the Subaru's. I would take a 1986 DL Subaru and a 1963-1971 Beatle over any car these guys make today. They are reliable, good on gas and maintenance and repairs are relatively easy. I can get 10 of these for every one you buy new.

Take care...

[duane b]

Where do you live? Here in MA and the Northeast old Subarus are rusted to bits. They're cramped, slow, rough riding, and odd looking to boot.

I realize that there are parts of the country where AWD is more necessity than desire, but there are plenty that aren't and I happen to live in one. But it seems like I live in Subaru capital USA! They're everywhere but it's not like people really need AWD here. I have to go look for places to get muddy, dirty, and slippery. But I would never go look in our Legacy it's just not that type of vehicle. There are places that I've taken my old GLs that I would never think of taking our Legacy or even an OBW.

 

Also you kind of missed my point. "They're cramped, slow, rough riding, and odd looking to boot." That was because at one time Subarus were quite unique in their own right! Now they're pretty mainstream looking, now more than ever with the 2005 models coming out.

 

I would trade toughness and reliability for high tech luxury any day. At least all car companies should offer something in a true Utilitarian class. I firmly believe that 90% of the "SUVs" out there should be called "Sport Luxury Vehicles" because there is nothing utilitarian about them. Subaru seems to have gone down this same path. That's what I meant that if Subaru made a new version of the GL that's what I would like to see.

 

 

"All cars break down. A good car breaks down conveniently."

LOL! I like that quote!

 

 

Anyway, thank you all for going easy on me.

[mattoh130]

Is there an AWD Sentra? Tough to compare apples and oranges isn't it?

 

Who else makes a 30 mpg AWD vehicle with the durability, driveability and affordability of a Subaru... Nobody

 

They DO have the cult following Subarus have ALWAYS had. The statistics on repeat business will attest to that.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Matt

[dave valiant]

I won't buy a new or newer Sube simply because I want to have the choice of putting my vehicle into 4WD.AWD is simply unnecasary in my opinion.Give me the choice or keep your new car,I don't want it.

[sasquatch]

Well, I'm new to the board and I wish you luck with your new vehicle. My '90 Legacy has been quirky (idle) but otherwise has been a workhorse that has been very reliable for it's 205k (so far). I do find it interesting though that anyone who seemed to care about the environment would harken back to old volkswagons (or subarus for that matter).

 

But again, good luck to you.

[coloradosubarules]

My 2 Cents.....

 

Trade my Subaru for a VW? Not highly likely! I had a VW once and man was that a bottomless money pit. I replaced every part but the block. That POS spent more time in the shop than in my driveway. I bought my 90 Legacy Wagon AWD from the salvation army for $700.00 cash about a year ago. I had never even heard of these cars untill I bought it. I LOVE MY SUBARU! I would rather have 2 foresters than one H2 Hummer. Granted my Roo needed CV's and a Fuel injector and now a seal or 2.....BIG F'ing deal!! I would love to see a 232K Domestic vehicle (besides my 88 Cherokee 248K) Good luck with your farfignugin. You willl be back!! Mark my words! Mark them well! (Take with a grain of salt)

Please note: I would saw off my left nut for the new 05 turbo Legacy. Now thats devotion.

[coloradosubarules]

As far as turning the 4WD system off goes. I installed a switch inline with the blade fuse under the hood, wich gives me the option to turn it on and off as I see fit from the cabin. I live in FL and really only need it on when I am making jacked up trucks look stupid and when it rains cats and dogs like it does on a daily basis here. You'll get my Subaru when you pry it from my cold dead hands..or have to use the jaws of life to get me out of it after I have been T-boned by a senior citizen in a Lincoln towncar.

[rweddy]

I do not think anyone on this list will say that newer subarus are as dead reliable as the old ones. But by the same token the old subarus leaked oil from the factory, got terrible gas mileage considering their size, were under powered, are death traps in wrecks…..

Remember new cars have think all new cars with new technology, computers system, electronic management systems, heated seats, power everything, etc and they are going to have more issues. But if you compare them to other vehicles in the same class or type you will see they all are having issues. Nissan has gone from 2-3 in initial quality to below GM with issues.

The only other AWD wagons you can get from other makers are VW, Audi or Volvo. And look at their discussion groups and see the issues they have with their vehicles. Compared to the competition Subaru is relatively trouble free when compared to them. All manufactures have their quirks, and you have to take into account the price of replacement parts and services.

Don’t get me wrong, I love old Subarus, look at my signature and see how many I have owned over the years. Now was Subaru wrong for not having a recall on the phase I 2.5 motors? I think they should have stepped up and claims responsibility for the problems.

 

Another issue is it seams that many members on the forum take their Subaru to the dealership for repair. I have several friends that are factory trained technicians and they will tell you that most if not all dealership are much more set up for parts swapping than diagnostics. They tend to throw parts at issues rather than take the time to properly diagnose the issue. You will get much better service at a shop that specializes in Subarus than you will at a dealership. This can be an issue depending on where you live, but here in Colorado there are multitudes of very good independent shops.

I think the new features, safety, size, power, etc makes up for the fact that they have some issues. My father-in-law was a 03 outback and has had no issues with it. And the 05 are awesome.

 

 

Just my 2 cents!

[Ranger83]

I do not think anyone on this list will say that newer subarus are as dead reliable as the old ones.

Yes, and all the girls in my high school were good looking.

[viceversa]

>>> With all the headgasket problems and AT tranny problems of the mid to late nineties

 

 

Get a 2.2L with a manual...

Japan doesn't know how to make autos. Neither does Ford. Or Chrysler. In fact, the only auto tranny I trust is 700R4/4L60 found in full size GM vehicles. Maybe old 3-speeds from Ford. Everything else - don't be surprised by a failuire around 140K miles.

 

You should see trannies in Mazda 626. Hardly any make it to 100K miles. I got a 626 off an auction for a good price - or so I thought - until the tranny was toast at 108,000 miles - the rest of the car was nearly mint. Subaru trannies are junk too, had one fail on my Loyale at 150K. I won't get an auto from any maker anymore.