MailManX Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 I'm the person who posted a couple weeks ago that the manual transmission in my 93 Legacy L AWD was making a "whirring" noise. The general consensus was that it was probably the main bearing and that I should change the fluid and look at the magnet on the plug. Today, I finally got around to changing the fluid (Redline 75W-90NS). The fluid that came out was still in excellent condition. It was the right color and consitency. It should be since the last time I changed it was only about 15,000 miles ago. There was a fine mist of tiny metal particles on the plug magnet. I figured that was acceptable for an old transmission with 203,000 miles on it. However, when I emptied the oil drain pan, this little guy was staring at me from the bottom of the pan. I have never been inside a transmission before, so I have no idea what kind of parts are in there. At the very least, I'm pretty certain that if it's supposed to be in there, it should not be out here in this picture! It looks to me like some kind of retainer. The left end appears to be broken off, but I can't be certain. The rest of it looks as if it's been chewed on a bit. After changing the oil, I took the car out for a 10 mile run combining freeway and surface streets. The transmission still "whirs". It also still shifts perfectly. If it weren't for that little part that fell out, I'd just ignore the noise and probably get many more years of use from the transmission with no worries. However, when I drive the car now, the back of my mind keeps reminding the front of my mind that there's a piece missing. That worries me. I keep expecting the transmission to freeze up on the freeway at 80mph and throw parts all over the road. Possibly even parts of me. I'm not fond of that idea. Are there any of you excellent shade tree or professional mechanics that know exactly what this doohickey is and what my car will do without it? I'm really hoping it's like a gall bladder. You know... Something the transmission was meant to have but can get along fine without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasquatch Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Oh...THAT's where I left it!! This "whirring"...is it more or a rattle that sounds like it's turning or more of a grinding? I'm thinking thrust bearing/spacer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 Oh...THAT's where I left it!! This "whirring"...is it more or a rattle that sounds like it's turning or more of a grinding? I'm thinking thrust bearing/spacer You want it back? I could send it to you. I thought that thrust bearings only came into play when the clutch was pushed in. My "whirring" noise is when the car is moving under power. The whirring speeds up and slows down with the car, but it's definitely somewhere in the transaxle based on the location of the sound and based on the fact that if I push the clutch in and coast, the noise goes away. The noise does not sound to me like a grind or like a rattle that's turning. I suppose that if I was limited to only those two choices, it would be the rattle that's turning. But I chose the word "whirring" because, to my ear, the sound just doesn't fit anything else. It's almost melodic as it speeds up and slows down with the speed of the car. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 Has anyone recently had a 5-speed tranny rebuilt in a 90-94 Legacy? I'd like to find out what the approx cost will be if I decide to have mine done. Thanks! Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasquatch Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 You want it back? I could send it to you. I thought that thrust bearings only came into play when the clutch was pushed in. My "whirring" noise is when the car is moving under power. The whirring speeds up and slows down with the car, but it's definitely somewhere in the transaxle based on the location of the sound and based on the fact that if I push the clutch in and coast, the noise goes away. The noise does not sound to me like a grind or like a rattle that's turning. I suppose that if I was limited to only those two choices, it would be the rattle that's turning. But I chose the word "whirring" because, to my ear, the sound just doesn't fit anything else. It's almost melodic as it speeds up and slows down with the speed of the car. Michael nope...I had a thrust bearing that was going out...you wouldn't hear it until I gave it some gas...anytime the car was under power....when I coasted it went away. I had the local subie dealer diagnose the sound and thrust bearing was what they came up with....I drove it that way for two years...no prob other then the noise...it isn't so much a bearing after all as a metal spacer.....I finally replaced the tranny only after the noise got MUCH louder and I experienced my first mis-shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasquatch Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 nope...I had a thrust bearing that was going out...you wouldn't hear it until I gave it some gas...anytime the car was under power....when I coasted it went away. I had the local subie dealer diagnose the sound and thrust bearing was what they came up with....I drove it that way for two years...no prob other then the noise...it isn't so much a bearing after all as a metal spacer.....I finally replaced the tranny only after the noise got MUCH louder and I experienced my first mis-shift. oh yeah...I didn't have mine rebuilt, I just bought a low miles one and had it put it...it ran me about 1K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Are there any of you excellent shade tree or professional mechanics that know exactly what this doohickey is and what my car will do without it? I'm really hoping it's like a gall bladder. You know... Something the transmission was meant to have but can get along fine without. By the way, that is the clip that holds the release bearing onto the clutch fork, and a broken one at that. There is one on each side of the bearing. You can see a whole one here: http://oem.thepartsbin.com/parts/thepartsbin/wizard.jsp?year=1995&make=SU&model=LEG-4WD-002&category=All&part=Rel.+Brg.+Clip Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 By the way, that is the clip that holds the release bearing onto the clutch fork.That's great info. Such an inexpensive piece to cause so much aggrevation! But isn't that often the way it goes in racing - the all important "five dollar part" that brings the mega-thousand dollar racing machine to it's knees. So, is a release bearing the same as the "thrust" bearing that Sasquatch referred to? What could happen if an improperly retained release bearing moved out of place (fell off, fell apart, etc.)? And if it's the release bearing making the noise, can that be replaced without the need to rebuild the whole transmission? Since I know absolutely nothing about transmissions, I need to gather all the knowledge I can before I take the car to a local mechanic. I don't want to get a diagnosis such as "Hmmm, you've gotcha one o' them bad release bearing gizmo's. I hate to say it, but when that fails, it usually takes the muffler bearing with it which is one of the main causes of premature head gasket failure. What we need to do is replace every single part on your car, including the door latch mechanisms. But you're in luck because we just had a cancellation, so we can have it all done by close of business today and it will only cost you $9,000 dollars. Trust us, we've been doing this for years." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 So, is a release bearing the same as the "thrust" bearing that Sasquatch referred to? What could happen if an improperly retained release bearing moved out of place (fell off, fell apart, etc.)? And if it's the release bearing making the noise, can that be replaced without the need to rebuild the whole transmission? Most of the people I know mean an internal trans bearing when they say thrust bearing, but then again I just don't know. The release bearing I'm talking about is what sits on the end of the clutch fork and presses against the clutch pressure plate. If that clip is not there the bearing will not be pulled back against the fork when you aren't using the clutch. That means the bearing could be riding against the pressure plate on that side causing it to make noise and wear unevenly. As for replacement, you don't have to take apart the transmission at all. You just have to seperate the trans from the engine to get to it. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasquatch Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Most of the people I know mean an internal trans bearing when they say thrust bearing, but then again I just don't know. The release bearing I'm talking about is what sits on the end of the clutch fork and presses against the clutch pressure plate. If that clip is not there the bearing will not be pulled back against the fork when you aren't using the clutch. That means the bearing could be riding against the pressure plate on that side causing it to make noise and wear unevenly. As for replacement, you don't have to take apart the transmission at all. You just have to seperate the trans from the engine to get to it. Keith not the same thing I was talking about but I bow before Keith's obviously superior knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajavwnsoobnut Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 release bearing = clutch release bearing = throw/out bearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 22, 2004 Author Share Posted September 22, 2004 release bearing = clutch release bearing = throw/out bearing Thanks! Sounds like my release bearing needs to be thrown out! Too bad I don't need a clutch job 'cuz it sounds like replacing a release bearing would be the perfect time to also replace the clutch. Oh, wait, now I'm confused. If you don't have to take apart the transmission to get to the release bearing, how could that broken retainer piece end up inside my transmission? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Oh, wait, now I'm confused. If you don't have to take apart the transmission to get to the release bearing, how could that broken retainer piece end up inside my transmission? That's a reall really good question. :-\ I believe there is a metal plate the comes off the back of the motor at the bottom of the flywheel/clutch assembly that mates up to the trans. I think there is the posibilty for something that small to get out from there. Not really sure about that though. If that was really just floating around Inside of the transmission I would think you would have more than just a whirling noise. Anybody else have any ideas? For that matter, do other people agree that the piece in the picture is a broken on of what I put the link up too? Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adnan Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 By the way, that is the clip that holds the release bearing onto the clutch fork, and a broken one at that. There is one on each side of the bearing. You can see a whole one here: http://oem.thepartsbin.com/parts/thepartsbin/wizard.jsp?year=1995&make=SU&model=LEG-4WD-002&category=All&part=Rel.+Brg.+Clip Keith Hi, I'll admit up front that I've never looked at the insides of a Subaru gearbox but I have to ask, how would anything related to the throwout bearing end up inside the gearbox? The t/o bearing and all the fork parts are typically in the bellhousing, which is isolated from the oily parts inside the gearbox. Unless, of course, Subaru gearboxes are very unconventional... Regards, Adnan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hi, I'll admit up front that I've never looked at the insides of a Subaru gearbox but I have to ask, how would anything related to the throwout bearing end up inside the gearbox? The t/o bearing and all the fork parts are typically in the bellhousing, which is isolated from the oily parts inside the gearbox. Unless, of course, Subaru gearboxes are very unconventional... Regards, Adnan That's exactly what we are discussing on page two.... As I've asked in my thread directly above yours here, would we all agree that his piece does indeed look like what I say it is. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Clark Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Osmosis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajavwnsoobnut Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 yeah I was wondering how that could have happened but it could have been nesting on the crossmember and you brushed against it at the right time and it fell into the pan w/o you noticing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setright Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I first off need to second Adnans motion. Clutch parts dont end up in the transmission. Indeed, according to the symptoms, I have held on the gearbox being the culprit all the time - in a previous post. Soobnut is onto something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. RX Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 By the way, that is the clip that holds the release bearing onto the clutch fork, and a broken one at that. There is one on each side of the bearing. You can see a whole one here: http://oem.thepartsbin.com/parts/thepartsbin/wizard.jsp?year=1995&make=SU&model=LEG-4WD-002&category=All&part=Rel.+Brg.+Clip Keith So last time I check, the release bearing was external to the transmission, I believe he stated that this showed up after draining the tranny, so how would it have gotten inside the tranny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 So last time I check, the release bearing was external to the transmission, I believe he stated that this showed up after draining the tranny, so how would it have gotten inside the tranny? COME ON! #1. There is a difference between it showing up after draining the fluid, and I know it came out through the drain plug. #2. Last time I looked, the drain hole on the trans is not large enough to pass something that big, with a hook on the end. #3. Out of all the trannies I've been involved with rebuilding, I've never seen anything even close to that inside it. #4. The dipstick tube is defenitly not large enough to get something like that in there, and the trans was never re-built before. So I stand by that it did not come out of the trans drain plug and just coincidentally wound up in the pan. I offered and answer to what the part was he found in his drain pan and based on that part being missing, how it could cause his problem. I'm no genius, but I think I've now made a clear argument against that part coming out of the fluid drain hole on the trans. No one else seems to have any bright ideas as to what the part could be, so instead of questioning my judgment as to what the part is, how about we help him fix his car. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 23, 2004 Author Share Posted September 23, 2004 ...it could have been nesting on the crossmember and you brushed against it at the right time and it fell into the pan w/o you noticing itNow that's a very smart deduction that I'd never thought of. #1. There is a difference between it showing up after draining the fluid, and I know it came out through the drain plug. #2. Last time I looked, the drain hole on the trans is not large enough to pass something that big, with a hook on the end. #3. Out of all the trannies I've been involved with rebuilding, I've never seen anything even close to that inside it. #4. The dipstick tube is defenitly not large enough to get something like that in there, and the trans was never re-built before. So I stand by that it did not come out of the trans drain plug and just coincidentally wound up in the pan. And this information is very conclusive. It is absolutely true that I never saw this part come out of the drain hole and that it would be darn near impossible for that to happen based on the size and shape of the part (I wish I'd have thought of that). So now I can quit worry that my transmission is going to disintegrate while I'm driving. Good thing, too, because I'm supposed to make a 600 mile round trip this weekend to visit family. With any luck, the partially retained release bearing will hold out until I finally need a clutch job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoobySchmitty Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 The worst that could happen is that the other retainer clip could break (on the other side of the release bearing), and each time you would push in the clutch, you would hear (and feel) a horrible rattling noise. I drove my old MY90 Legacy like this for a while, until I replaced the clutch and found that I needed the retaining clips (which the clutch kit DID NOT provide). My Dad and I fashioned two of them out of old coat-hanger wire. Worked perfectly! Also, the only way I could see this part getting outside the transmission would be if there is a small gap between the engine and the tranny's bell housing. I don't recall if there is such a gap there from OEM casting or machining, but if this is the case, the transaxel might be mounted loosely to the engine. Something to check out next time your under the S00b. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MailManX Posted September 23, 2004 Author Share Posted September 23, 2004 ...the transaxle might be mounted loosely to the engine. Something to check out next time your under the S00b. I'll check for a gap or for loose mounting this evening. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 ScoobySchmitty comes through! I had the exact same situation, I put the clutch in and all of a sudden I felt something snap and it started making this horrible noise in the bellhousing. It's nothing major, the bearing can't go anywhere. It will still be forced to push against the pressure plate when the clutch fork comes forward. It will just destroy the bearing and fork (and possibly the pressure plate) over a long period of time. And if you'll believe this, I never found the old clips for my TOB :-\ That did indeed look like a throwout bearing retaining clip. But unless you've got MAJOR transmission issues , there's no possible way that can get into the gearbox and then out the drain plug. You've either got a gap between your engine and tranny, which you need to address AT ONCE, or there's an ever-so-slight possibility that the clip flew out of the timing hole on the bellhousing and ended up somehow in your pan... Good luck Michael! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. RX Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 COME ON! Keith Merely repeating the assumption made. You know, your head will stop hurting when you stop beating your head against that wall. Are you willing to bet money that it didn't come out of the drain hole. When I first saw it and the explaination of where he found it, I thought it might be a syncro retainer, but then I'm not familiar with the inside of a Subaru tranny (at least not yet, I have two that need rebuilding), so I didn't comment. If it were a syncro retainer, it might answer the noise question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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