jeffroid Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I posted a couple of times last week or so. I've got two '83 GL wagons. I THOUGHT I had a wrecked one with a good engine, and a good one with a blown head gasket. I had all the classic symptoms or so I thought. Overheated, couldn't keep coolant in it, couldn't see where the coolant was going. There was ugly gunk in the oil filler neck, it looked like there was coolant in the oil. I parked it, and they both sat in my yard for two years. Now I want to get one going again. So I did a leakdown test on both engines, and was surprised to find the one with the blown head gasket had better readings. That did not deter me from proceeding with pulling the heads, as some posters indicated that I could still have a head gasket leak with those relatively good leakage percentages. After I had the intake off and thinking about it, I started getting scared. What if I pull the heads off and it doesn't look like there is anything wrong? I could waste all that time and two good head gaskets for nothing. It gets better. Before yanking the heads off, I came up with the idea of pressure testing the cooling system. I made two flat metal plates and used two new intake gaskets to plug the intake manifold. I plugged both outlet hoses from the water pump and all the other fittings and hoses common to the cooling system. I pressurized the cooling system to 20 PSI and guess what? NO LEAKAGE. The damn thing sat for an hour with my pressure gauge glued to 20 PSI. I am now afraid that I over reacted to the overheating and assumed that I had a bad head gasket when I really didn't. Could the residue in the filler neck just be from condensation? I now go wipe the dipstick off and put it back in, and the oil looks brown instead of black, but what does that mean? Also, the spark plugs look all the same and normal. Sorry for the long post, but what do I do now? I've got the thing all ripped apart, should I proceed with the head gasket job? Or should I put it back together, change the oil, and do a better job of troubleshooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 since you are that far, replace everything that should be replaced, hoses, gaskets, thermostat when you put the manifold bolts in, use never-sez your waterpupm or radiatior is suspect #1, a good non contact thermometer should be used to troubleshoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddcomp Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 so where exactly in washington are you? i seem to have lost my mind reading ability .. temporarily i assure you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 The mayonnaise-looking oil is when air is whipped into the oil/water emulsion, and after sitting for some time it will lose the air and look brown. The "good news" is without the entrained air the oil/water gunk will have mostly drained down out of the engine, so change the oil before you do much more engine turning. The stuff in the filler neck COULD just be from condensation, but gunk on the dipstick is usually a different story, so go with what you saw there. Depending on how far you have it torn down already, I would go ahead and replace the headgaskets. Sitting for a couple of years without replenishment of anti-corrosion in cooling system can't have done the HGs any good. HGs don't last forever and today sounds like a good day to do them. Tomorrow you won't be worried about "What if they are bad?" Still, do as everybody will tell you and do maintenance on cooling system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 since you are that far, replace everything that should be replaced, hoses, gaskets, thermostat when you put the manifold bolts in, use never-sez your waterpupm or radiatior is suspect #1, a good non contact thermometer should be used to troubleshoot You're not recommending the head gaskets too, are you? I'm not THAT far yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 so where exactly in washington are you?i seem to have lost my mind reading ability .. temporarily i assure you Seattle area (Renton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 no, not the head gaskets, unless it's obviously bad, but consider front crank seal, oil pan gasket adjust valves and replace gaskets, change sparkplugs, install oil pressure guage, set timing, exhaust and intake gaskets, vac. caps, egr valve remove, gasket, carb change -- weber, ea82 system, get rid of carter/weber, replace vac and fuel lines, filters -- oil, air, fuel change from summer air to winter air in tires Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taprackready Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Another easy check is to remove the oil drain plug. If you have a bad head gasket and water did get into the oil, then water will be the first thing to drain out when you pull the plug. It will be nice clear water and then the oil will come out after. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Another easy check is to remove the oil drain plug. If you have a bad head gasket and water did get into the oil, then water will be the first thing to drain out when you pull the plug. It will be nice clear water and then the oil will come out after. Bill Man what a good idea. I don't know why I didn't think of that because I was going to change the oil before fireing it back up anyway. Just drained the oil and it looks fine, but a little brown maybe? Not sure about that. It looked worse on the dipstick for some reason. And I still have that emulsified stuff in the filler neck, but that could have been there forever and caused by condensation. If there was water in the oil would I be able to see it in the drain pan or could it all be mixed in with the oil? I did run the engine for several minutes before doing the leakdown test, but that was about three days ago. I'm literally ready to flip a coin. Those head gaskets HAVE been sitting there for two years and I'm already there, and I would hate to put it all back together and wish after that I would have done the head gaskets. BUT it is quite a bit more work and I'm almost thinking like "if it aint broke don't fix it". The heads don't appear to be leaking now - how easy would it be to screw up by removing and replacing them and have the things start leaking when they didn't before? I'm not planning on pulling the engine, and it doesn't look like fun working on the heads like it sits. My back already hurts just thinking about it. One more thing I forgot to ask. What are the chances of my "problem" (whatever it is) being something in the crankcase? I would really really hate to do all this work and have a problem there. Bottom line is though - good leakdown readings, absolutely no pressure loss in the cooling system (the gauge is still on 20 PSI after three hours), and it is possible that my suspicion of water in the oil COULD be a false alarm. Sorry again for the long post, but this forum is awesome. So many helpful replies so quickly. Any more opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 what you don't want to se is water followed by oil, white oil/water mix, what looks like coffee with creamer black oil is nothing to be afraid of, just means it has collected internal dirt, soot ... "new" oil is usually the color of or darker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taprackready Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 What he said. Water and oil don't mix. Meaning if the engine was running it will mix tempararily and be a frothy, foamy mess. Then, when the engine is shut down and allowed to sit for an hour or less, the oil and water will seperate and the water will sink to the bottom and the oil will float to the top. Hence, when you pull the drain plug and see water coming out followed by oil, you have problems. If you just have dirty oil, then maybe all is good. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Just drained the oil and it looks fine, but a little brown maybe? Not sure about that... ... If there was water in the oil would I be able to see it in the drain pan or could it all be mixed in with the oil? I did run the engine for several minutes before doing the leakdown test, but that was about three days ago. My unfortunately many experiences with blown HGs over the decades has allowed me to look at quite a bit of trashed oil. When my '82 blew its HG, I got the quart of clear water draining from oil pan followed by relatively normal oil. When our '87 twagon blew its HG and cracked its head, we got a nasty creamed-coffee emulsion. The oil I drained off of the '87 sat in a couple gallon milk jugs for approx 6 mo waiting to be disposed of. (can't recycle coolant contaminated oil.) During this wait, the "creamer" rose to the top, eventually disappearing, leaving a brown oil behind. The only time I have ever seen brown oil was when it started as creamed-coffee emulsion. ...how easy would it be to screw up by removing and replacing them and have the things start leaking when they didn't before? I'm not planning on pulling the engine, and it doesn't look like fun working on the heads like it sits. My back already hurts just thinking about it... I feel your pain!! did the '82 in car. As far as leaking, just be careful and don't rush it and things should be fine. Since the intake is off, you already have something to seal up again. ... What are the chances of my "problem" (whatever it is) being something in the crankcase? I would really really hate to do all this work and have a problem there. During the month or two that I have prowled this board, I have only seen one reference to ANY sort of block failure (if you disregard people stripping bolt holes). Somebody put a rod through the top of the case. I personally doubt that the block is something that you need worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 What he said. Water and oil don't mix. Plain water and oil at room temperature don't mix well, this is true. But we are talking about a witch's brew of water, oil, additives, detergents, and usually glycol compounds, plus elevated temperatures. The oil and water can stay emulsified for months and years. Think of the "soluble oil" that waterless handcleaners use. Also used in machining and waterpump lubricant additives. Just being contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Thanks, thanks, thanks for all the help. Just short of flipping a coin, I had almost decided to put it back together, run it, and start troubleshooting. Before I did that, it ocurred to me that I hadn't pulled the valve covers off, and there might be something interesting in there to see. Well, I pulled them off, and the inside of the valve covers were coated with this grey-white emulsified slime about 1/4" thick - worse on the right side. There's also corrosion on the bolts and head. That can't be normal, can it? So now I'm leaning back towards pulling the heads off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Well, after reading all the posts, until your last one, I was ready to say run it. Oil that sits for 2yrs or more is going to discolor. Now you may have to flip that coin. Theres been some folks that have run engines with very small HG leaks for quite a long time, with no problems. This might happen in your case. You can run it the way it is, and if you keep an eye on the oil I think it might be fine. But sooner or later those HG's are going to have to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 Again - thanks everyone for all the help. This has actually become somewhat funny. I have changed my mind back and forth so many times on whether to yank the heads I'm starting to get dizzy. Now it's just a matter of whether I change my mind an even or odd number of times. I left my coolant system pressured up overnight, and this morning my little gauge setup was still glued to 20 PSI. That tells me that the gunk in the filler tube and inside the valve covers almost HAS to be from condensation, right? So now in my mind it's just a question of weighing the value of having new head gaskets while I've already done much of the work involved in replacing them - verses the "if it aint broke don't fix it" mentality. Yeah, I'll probably have to replace the head gaskets eventually, but my pal Murphy says I'll break or strip something trying to get the heads off and on when I APPARENTLY don't really need to. Well, tomorrow's my day off and the good weather up here in the PNW is supposed to continue (I'm doing this work in my back yard without cover). So I've got the rest of today and tonight to stew on it some more. Further input is greatly appreciated. THANKS ! ! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taprackready Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Plain water and oil at room temperature don't mix well, this is true. But we are talking about a witch's brew of water, oil, additives, detergents, and usually glycol compounds, plus elevated temperatures. The oil and water can stay emulsified for months and years. Think of the "soluble oil" that waterless handcleaners use. Also used in machining and waterpump lubricant additives. Just being contrary. That may be true but I'm just going from my recent experience where my daughter drove my brat past the point of overheating over a 20 mile stretch. A few days later when I had replaced the head gaskets I drained the oil to put in fresh stuff and lo and behold a whole bunch of water/antifreeze came out first then the oil followed. I also have to say the inside of my valve covers were coated with a slimy whipped foam and if this gentleman has the same symptoms then its time to dig in and change the head gaskets. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subiemech85 Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 but, the right valve cover recieves atmosphere air, which has moisture in the form of humidity, over time that moisture combines with blowby gasses to make the goo you know don't touch the head gaskets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taprackready Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 but, the right valve cover recieves atmosphere air, which has moisture in the form of humidity, over time that moisture combines with blowby gasses to make the goo you know don't touch the head gaskets I changed many a valve cover and have never seen the same whipped foam white/grey goo that occurs on a blown head gasket occur on a normal unbroken vehicle. I say change em. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 I'm running out of pennies here, folks! LOL I have seen some of same goo in valve covers of various engines with unblown HGs. Amount/thickness probably has more relevance than just presence. As far as whether to replace or not... I think that you have spent FAR too much time agonizing over this. Obviously, a strong case could be made either way. (Flip...flip...flip...) So it comes down to what best fits your situation. Do you HAVE to put this into service as a daily driver immediately? (doesn't sound like you do.) If yes, then fix it totally. If not, no worry in seeing if existing HGs work. Does the tear down work that you have already done seem so great that you don't want to need to do it again in 2 days/weeks/months/years (pick a possible problem date)? Remember, it WILL be quicker the second (and 3rd, 4th,...) time you do this. What is your personality like? With me, I normally would rather get the hard work done now when I have the time/weather/money/whatever and be lazy for a couple years than wait and hope it doesn't cause me problems when I can't afford the time/weather/... I could live with it either way, I just like the prospect of a long period of uninterrupted laziness!!! These cars and their engines were marketed for utility uses where they had to survive tough conditions. If the HG is blown and you run it, things are probably going to be alright; just need to do a couple close-together oil/filter changes after you get it running. Can't say the same for some high-strung pansy engines. And I haven't heard of any bolt breaking/stripping problems in the EA81s. Need to be careful where bolts are exposed to coolant (thermostat, intake?), but sounds like you have already done these. Valve area and headstuds should be no prob. So, my last 2 cents (see? pockets are empty!) is do what works for you. You have heard both sides represented pretty well, and I could agree with either. In the end, it doesn't matter that much. It is just your time and your style of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 This is great discussion. I am compelled to keep it going. If the slime in the valve cover is caused by a HG leak or head problem, how can the coolant system possibly stay pressurized without any sign of leakage? Here's a possiblility that hasn't been brought up yet. Recall that I already have the intake off, and pressurized the coolant system by fabricating metal plates and bolting them on the heads with new intake gaskets. Suppose I had an intake gasket leak, and coolant was being introduced through the intake into the combustion chamber. I already mentioned that I had good leakdown readings, but I'd still be getting a small amount of water vapor in the combustion gasses. That would put moisture in the valve covers via leakage past the valve guides and moisture in the crankcase via leakage past the rings. Perhaps that, along with condensation up here in the moist PNW is the source of the goo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stngllhm Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 i had alot of problems with that gasketdon't by felpro every time i have tried to replace that gasket with the felpro it has blown within the month(yes i am a slow learner happened 4 times) since then i have started using victor-rienz(i hope that is how you spell it) from carquest and haven't had a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest taprackready Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 This is great discussion. I am compelled to keep it going. If the slime in the valve cover is caused by a HG leak or head problem, how can the coolant system possibly stay pressurized without any sign of leakage? Here's a possiblility that hasn't been brought up yet. Recall that I already have the intake off, and pressurized the coolant system by fabricating metal plates and bolting them on the heads with new intake gaskets. Suppose I had an intake gasket leak, and coolant was being introduced through the intake into the combustion chamber. I already mentioned that I had good leakdown readings, but I'd still be getting a small amount of water vapor in the combustion gasses. That would put moisture in the valve covers via leakage past the valve guides and moisture in the crankcase via leakage past the rings. Perhaps that, along with condensation up here in the moist PNW is the source of the goo? I think your correct in your thinking. If your willing to take a chance then by all means go for it. You really have nothing to lose except time if you end up having to take it apart again. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbrat Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 well, I had a HG blow on a ea81 wagon, it was fine until the motor warmed up. it expanded enough to open up the tear in the HG. then the exhaust went into the coolant. but while the motor was cold and just started, it was fine.... There have been reports on the board where an leaky intake gasket caused the stuff you describ in the VC's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffroid Posted October 14, 2004 Author Share Posted October 14, 2004 i had alot of problems with that gasketdon't by felpro every time i have tried to replace that gasket with the felpro it has blown within the month(yes i am a slow learner happened 4 times) since then i have started using victor-rienz(i hope that is how you spell it) from carquest and haven't had a problemThanks - I located the victor-whatever gaskets and am picking them up after work. Should I use permatex on the intake manifold gaskets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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