FLUIDS fact or fiction?

[brus brother]

Are there suitable fluids for tranny and fuel injector cleaners that do the job without the advertising hype?

I see where SOA and other specialty dealers ONLY are supllied with BG 44K for engine and injector cleaning and at a relatively hefty price. Other than a marketting ploy and elitism, is there any difference between their chemistry and say STP injector cleaner?

On a similar note, much is said about mixing tranny fluids by different manufacturers. Since a drain and fill tranny fluid change only swaps out about half of the fluid, unless SOA specified their factory installed fluid, you would in all likelihood, always be mixing brands. In fact the parts manager of my dealership says he gets various manufacturers sent to him for his shop.

Penzoil specifies its type III trany fluid as compatable with other type III Mercon tranny fluids but other compainies do not make such a claim. As long as you are not mixing type F with type III Mercon, is there any harm?

Anyone have science to back up the above??

[surfcraft]

Howdy-

 

All I've done to my '03 Forester so far is change my oil and my air filter, but I'm going to tackle the 60,000 mi maintenance myself.

 

The suggested maintenance table says that other than coolant and engine oil, only the brake fluid needs a complete fluid change. The rest: tranny and diff, clutch and power steering only need checking and topping-off.

 

The manual, in all cases, makes a big deal of cautioning about mixing fluids from different manufacturers.

 

Just to be safe, I thought I'd pick up some factory fluids while I was in getting some other Dealer items( brake stuff, etc.) Then I came across the above thread by Brus Brother that casts doubt on whether even the Dealers take this caution seriously.

 

 

In my 60s and 70s IHs and Fords I don't get my panties in a bunch about manufacturers, I just match grades and viscosities, but this is my first new car to work on and everything about it is more "highly evolved".

 

What do Subaru wrenchers do?

 

Thanks,

 

JW

[Tech1967]

Injector cleaner for retail sales are generally weaker due to liability concerns. Wynns 88 in a silver metal bottle works really well but is hard to find ( where I am anyway). Don't put it in with any less than half a tank and don't use it regularly. With the car running on a gas analyser you can watch the emissions drop quite a bit over 15-20 min. If you're lucky it can even fix problem engines that seem to need a lot more work. Wynns also makes a tranny fluid flusher that does an excellent job (expensive machine). It drains fluid from one tranny cooler line and puts the new stuff in at the other side of the connection so you get 100% fluid change. My old chevette was the guinea pig to see if the machine was worth it and the difference in fuel milage could be noticed on my 1/2 hour commute. Wal-mart here has one but I wouldn't let them do the job. No place that runs ads that say techs required experience not necesary should do that kind of work.

[Setright]

Sube wrenchers like me, with age-old experience from a Subaru Authorised shop, and three Subes with my name on them, do the following:

 

RedeX injector cleaner - which for me, has produced better results that STP.

 

 

ATF oils aren't identical of course, but even so, I wouldn't worry about mixing brands. I would however, consider that Subaru has long insisted on running mineral-based ATF's. Check the manual for clarity. They may have made the jump to semi-synth...

[nipper]

FLuids as long as they are the same type (dextron for example) can be mixed.

Fuel injector cleaning unless you have a rough idle and have done a tuneup and have over 100K miles is a huge waste of money.

Same with the 36,000 mile brake fluid flush (do it when the brakes are serviced). Another rip off is the power steering flush.

Now when you do a tranny change, you dont get 1/2, you get 1/3 out. You need to do it three times to do a complete change (starting the car and running it through prndl).

 

nipper

[Snowman]

For fuel injector cleaner, I always use the Chevron stuff. It's always worked well in my subarus, and has made dramatic changes in fuel economy if the fuel system is dirty.

[brus brother]

Hey Nip, I've always wondered if you ever completely change the fluid with the sequential drain and fill method or you just dilute the contaminants that remain in the 2/3 total volume that remained from the first drain and at each subsequent drain and fill. Riddle me that Batman;)

FLuids as long as they are the same type (dextron for example) can be mixed.

Fuel injector cleaning unless you have a rough idle and have done a tuneup and have over 100K miles is a huge waste of money.

Same with the 36,000 mile brake fluid flush (do it when the brakes are serviced). Another rip off is the power steering flush.

Now when you do a tranny change, you dont get 1/2, you get 1/3 out. You need to do it three times to do a complete change (starting the car and running it through prndl).

 

nipper

[nipper]

Hey Nip, I've always wondered if you ever completely change the fluid with the sequential drain and fill method or you just dilute the contaminants that remain in the 2/3 total volume that remained from the first drain and at each subsequent drain and fill. Riddle me that Batman;)

 

 

i used to like you .......

 

nipper

[cookie]

Evar have your engine oil analized? It's amazing how one quart top up can bring oil back to life with fresh additves. I reckon the tranny drain and fill works similarly.

We analize all our fleet stuff because an oil change on a Diesel locmotive ain't cheap. It's amazing how they bring fluids back to life with filtering and top ups.

[surfcraft]

Thanks for all of the replies.

 

I'm just going to do what I've always done in regards to the fluids, knowing that there will be some mixing going on.

 

To clarify, (and I should know better than to leave this out of any post) I've got a manual tranny. I'm guessing that consistancy of fluid types would be more critical in auto trannies in any event.

 

I haven't decided whether to re-pack my wheel bearings this go-round, but that would be an instance where I would clean all traces of the previous lube so I wouldn't risk contamination by mixing grease types, i.e., lithium base with sodium (although I haven't seen a sodium-based grease in quite a while.)

 

I put off the work this weekend 'cause SoCal was so cold, in the 40's . Cold-climate folks insert chuckle here. I'll try again next weekend---especially looking forward to changing those plugs; I do feel OK about it since doing a search here on the subject!

 

Cheers,

 

JW

[usaru]

"Riddle me that Batman" - OK gentlemen, I fired up the ol' abacus and after the smoke cleared (it hadn't been used in a while) the following conclusion emerged: After 3 drain and refillls of ATF, 30% of the fluid is still "old".

 

 

The first d & r leaves 66.6% original fluid. The second d & r replaces 33.3% of 66.6%, which leaves 44.4% original. The third d & r replaces 33.3% of 44.4%, which leaves 29.6% original fluid.

 

8 d & r's should get you to about 2% original, which is pretty much a "flush". By that time the first d & r is starting to get old, so just keep going. Seems that one needs to do a d & r pretty much every oil change to keep it "fresh" overall?

[nipper]

"Riddle me that Batman" - OK gentlemen, I fired up the ol' abacus and after the smoke cleared (it hadn't been used in a while) the following conclusion emerged: After 3 drain and refillls of ATF, 30% of the fluid is still "old".

 

 

The first d & r leaves 66.6% original fluid. The second d & r replaces 33.3% of 66.6%, which leaves 44.4% original. The third d & r replaces 33.3% of 44.4%, which leaves 29.6% original fluid.

 

8 d & r's should get you to about 2% original, which is pretty much a "flush". By that time the first d & r is starting to get old, so just keep going. Seems that one needs to do a d & r pretty much every oil change to keep it "fresh" overall?

 

or just pay a mechanic to do a flush.

 

nipper

[usaru]

"or just pay a mechanic to do a flush."

 

Aha! Glad to see someone understood what I was saying.

[brus brother]

heresy!

"or just pay a mechanic to do a flush."

 

[nipper]

heresy!

 

i paid him to do it. gets riid of that "what do i do with this oil" problem.

 

nipper

[usaru]

"i paid him to do it. gets riid of that "what do i do with this oil" problem."

 

C'maaan Nipper, you've got wrench-envy, admit it. If you didn't have a bad back you'd be rolling around in a big 'ol oil puddle on the garage floor along with the rest of the nickel and dime crowd here.

 

Oh dear, what on earth do I do with the used oil? Puh-leeese!

[johnceggleston]

of course it all depends on how much you drain out each time, what percentage. but yeah, 8 times should do it. 3.5 qts at 2.30$ = 8.05$ times 8 = 64.40$; for anothe 25$ you can getr a shop to do it .

 

 

and you get to read last months time magizine.

[brus brother]

Warm it up and pour it over the castle walls when the infidels approach .

"what do i do with this oil" problem.

 

nipper

[86subaru]

well i know how much i drained out ,7 qt and refilled it up with 7 qt, i draned it into a empty drain pan ,poured it into empty gal jugs , pulled the car onto 1 ramp ,so car is at a tilt , around here NO shop will do a tranny flush, old oil can be taken to wal-mart

[iluvdrt]

Are there suitable fluids for tranny and fuel injector cleaners that do the job without the advertising hype?

I see where SOA and other specialty dealers ONLY are supllied with BG 44K for engine and injector cleaning and at a relatively hefty price. Other than a marketting ploy and elitism, is there any difference between their chemistry and say STP injector cleaner?

On a similar note, much is said about mixing tranny fluids by different manufacturers. Since a drain and fill tranny fluid change only swaps out about half of the fluid, unless SOA specified their factory installed fluid, you would in all likelihood, always be mixing brands. In fact the parts manager of my dealership says he gets various manufacturers sent to him for his shop.

Penzoil specifies its type III trany fluid as compatable with other type III Mercon tranny fluids but other compainies do not make such a claim. As long as you are not mixing type F with type III Mercon, is there any harm?

Anyone have science to back up the above??

 

 

The BG 44k fuel induction cleaner is A LOT differant than your STP cleaner, and is applied differantly. My company uses Everware, but is basically the same product. It is much more caustic, and cleans better. STP treatments are mixed with gas, and diluted. The BG 44k and such is applied directly through the throttle and not only cleans the injectors, but the vales and cylinders as well. In fact you have to add an oil stabilizer to help stabilise the engine oil.

 

It is worth the money, but only if you change the fuel filter as well. I am sure you have heard of seafoam...it too is another brand of F/I cleaner. The main problem with the do it your self-ers is it is applied to rapidly, thus fouling out the plugs, and drowing the engine. A proper F/I cleaning should take about 35-45 min, and little to no white smoke should come out. Tipically, on high milage vehicles, you should see about a 15% increase in fuel economy with changing the fuel filter, and cleaning the throttle bore. A very nice service to be had considering the price of gas. It is usually reccomended every 15-20K miles.

 

As far as tranny fluid is concered, it is best not to mix fluid brands( although they all have to meet or exceede gov standards). The "universal" flids are good-to go, because they contain additional suppliments, and detergants. The only real problem with them is occasionally on certain vehicles(those requireing ATF instead of Dex) is that they have to have friction modifiers added in in order to be compatible due to certain tolerances in the trans. Same goes for "multi-vehicle" coolant.

 

 

The problem on higher milage vehicles with original fluid is that trans fliud is very detergant based, and when a complete flush is performed a lot of the dirt is later cleaned out causing leaks. Usually anything over 70k shouldnt be flushed (unless it has been done before), and most places will refuse to do it.

[ringe]

I just want to add that I used the BG tranny cleaner and additive during my last tranny flush a year ago and it seems to have helped a bit with the transfer clutch bind issue I have been dealing with for a while, and my AWD doesn't balk before engaging any longer like it did before the flush. It could be I was wildly overdue, but the fluid was still red when I flushed it out.

[nipper]

 

The problem on higher milage vehicles with original fluid is that trans fliud is very detergant based, and when a complete flush is performed a lot of the dirt is later cleaned out causing leaks. Usually anything over 70k shouldnt be flushed (unless it has been done before), and most places will refuse to do it.

 

hrmmm

 

API (American Petroleum Institue http://www.api.org/) and SAE (Society Of Automotive Engineers www.sae.org) are not goverment agencies that set the standards.

 

The tranny flush is true for trannies from the 1980's or earlier, and does not apply anymore. Many many many people have had high mileage flushes on this list, and they do not cause the trannies to leak. In the old days the tranies had many internal parts, seals, and a different material.

Oddly i have yet to see anyshop refuse to do a flush. When I had mine done at 186,000 miles the onlyn thing they made note of was that I came into the shop with Torque bind.

 

ALmost all fule has some sort of fuel injector cleaner already in it. I have yet to see anyone properly clean an injector.

 

The best injector cleaning is done at service shops. To check injector condition, a technician connects a fuel pressure gauge, momentarily energizes the fuel pump, and then operates each injector. The drop in pressure for each injector is measured. If they are all close or equal, everything is good. If there is a difference, the injectors need cleaning. This is an "injector flush".

 

To clean the injectors, the technician will disconnect the fuel injector lines from the rest of the system at the engine and connect another tank, containing concentrated cleaning solution, to the engine. He will then operate the engine for several minutes on the concentrated cleaner solution. This usually cleans the injectors and also cleans carbon off the back side of the intake valves to allow the air-fuel mixture to enter the cylinders better.

 

 

nipper

(btw i am a member of both SAE and API)

[nipper]

P.S.

 

Never use a chemical flush on anything internal in the drivetrain, especially after high mileage (not including fuel injectors). Fresh fluid is all the flush you need to get rid of gunk. Anything stronger can kill the drivetrain or make it leak like a seive.

 

nipper

[ringe]

P.S.

 

Never use a chemical flush on anything internal in the drivetrain, especially after high mileage (not including fuel injectors). Fresh fluid is all the flush you need to get rid of gunk. Anything stronger can kill the drivetrain or make it leak like a seive.

 

nipper

 

So basically no more BG QuickClean huh?

[iluvdrt]

P.S.

 

Never use a chemical flush on anything internal in the drivetrain, especially after high mileage (not including fuel injectors). Fresh fluid is all the flush you need to get rid of gunk. Anything stronger can kill the drivetrain or make it leak like a seive.

 

nipper

 

Most "flushes" include a cleaning additive to "flush" the grime. otherwise it is just a fluid exchange. That is why I said not to do it over 70k. The flush additive(cleaner) will make it leak. My business is also a member of API and MAP.

I personally ( and company policy prohibits) and flushing over 70k unless it is documented it has been done before. Fluid exchanges are differant.

 

BTW, I never said who sets the standards. I was basing my experiance on the numerous facilites I have worked at.

 

We will do a fluid exchange, but not a flush on high milage vehicles.

 

My last post was misleading, I am sorry.