05 Legacy Wagon GT-180˚ - Help!

[Guest JonTito]

My 1st ever Chat-Room, of any-kind, post. Situation - first time for my MT, Legacy to hit the highway with me and my two 30lb. dogs in front and four boxes of books and files in the cargo area; dry pavement, good visibility, downhill-left, four-lane sweeper in center-lane, no oncoming vehicles, just shy of loss-of-grip at 70, in 4th gear; hazard appears well-down the road in my lane; no braking or corrective-steering necessary (I think), simply a throttle lift (wrong); surprise-SPIN; practiced, opposite-lock; recovery at 180˚ with dogs on floor and potential need for a brown stain-remover!

 

My Subaru Dealer's response - "Your car was checked out (for three-days), by our Regional-Technical Rep and is just fine; it was your reaction that was wrong; you should have hit the brake, because lifting transferred 100% of the power to the front-wheels, exacerbating the spin" (right, like braking, transferring the wheel-load from the back to the front, lightening the back, wouldn't have!). National-Subaru Dealer's Customer Service final response- "We checked with the dealer; your vehicle was checked out and they were unable to duplicate your incident. Therefore there is nothing Subaru or the dealer can do for you".

 

I doubt that the tech-guy found a similar downhill-sweeper with the vehicle loaded as I was (cargo that is), in his effort to duplicate my incident. I am willing to be reasonable on a repurchase by the dealer or Subaru and have not asked for a 100% refund, as I had use of the vehicle for two months. The vehicle, with 2000 mi. on it, was left at the dealer 10-days ago as "unsafe to drive". Had my untrained-wife been at the wheel in the same situation, I likely would be attending to her in a hospital or mortuary.

 

My thoughts for going forward are to: 1) gather additional evidence and if successful, take another run at the dealer and Subaru and/or 2) go to the media and find a reporter brave enough to take a 180˚ ride with me on the road-course at PIR and let them take another run at the dealer or 3) get Joan Claybrook involved - a lengthy process with the result, if any, a yellow Big-Brother Warning Label on the dash - DO NOT LIFT IN A TURN, and my last resort - enrich the lawyers. I believe Subaru knows about this problem and is in their "ducking-the-issue" mode, in hopes that it will go away, while instituting an engineering-fix for the 06's.

 

Has anyone else had a similar experience or read of any? Thanks to all of you that take the time to read this Tome.

[frag]

Have a look at this if you have'nt already. Not a direct answer to your plight but might be interesting for comparison. Was posted here recently by outback_97.

http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~scoobydoo/imprezaweb/reviews/handling.htm

[scottzg]

heh, you're not going to get anywhere. You took a very evenly balanced car, loaded up the back, and went around the turn at "just shy of loss-of-grip at 70," and lifted at the apex. A little stupid, in my humble opinion. A well balanced car like the legacy wagon will brake and hold the road better than any other arangement. This of course is safer. Muck with the weight as you did, and you have to be aware of the way the car will handle. The car is designed to have predictable limits, but without traction control it can't protect you from yourself.

 

My suggestion is to unload that car immediately and get something with no rear sway bar or with traction control. Or, you could drive a bit more gently when you have a load of junk in the back.

[blitz]

Suddenly lifting in mid-turn while pushing the limit of adhesion is a recipe for disaster in almost any vehicle, but even more so in a "GT chassied" FWD or viscous-coupled 50/50 AWD vehicle. Experienced performance drivers recognize lift-throttle oversteer as a universal and well known handling characteristic.

 

You the driver are responsible for keeping control of your vehicle at all times. Your choice to drive your car at it's limit without being fully aware of it's emergency handling characteristics was your's alone. You were careless. You were foolish. You wrecked.

 

I conclude that the only defective component in the vehicle system was the nut behind the wheel. Sorry to be so harsh, but you asked.

 

BTW, what was the legal posted speed limit on the turn in question?

[Guest JonTito]

Blitz, thanks and you are correct. I should have done some inquiries as to the mechanical differences between the Audi and Subaru 4WD systems and the resulting differences in handling characteristics. My previous "performance-driving" has been exclusively in engine and suspension-modified, Audi 4WD's and the first lesson I learned at driver's school was never to brake in a turn, for obvious reasons. My "too-late" research today revealed that both Car and Driver and Consumer Reports gave fair-warning that the Legacy swaps ends, without warning, when suddenly lifting in a turn. I am, of course, curious how the seasoned test-drivers discovered that problem without the same thing happening to them. Motor Trend, to a lesser extent, warns of rear-end looseness. If I am stuck with the vehicle, otherwise a great looking and performing ride, there will be no more sudden lifts in turns, but rather a gradual lift when necessary.

 

There is no highway speed limit in AZ. The Statue uses the Reasonable and Prudent Standard and posted speeds are suggested based, theoretically, on the 85th percentile of actual drivers for the instant conditions. In this case it was 60. There was no wreck as I was lucky.

 

The Nut Behind The Wheel

 

Suddenly lifting in mid-turn while pushing the limit of adhesion is a recipe for disaster in almost any vehicle, but even more so in a "GT chassied" FWD or viscous-coupled 50/50 AWD vehicle. Experienced performance drivers recognize lift-throttle oversteer as a universal and well known handling characteristic.

 

You the driver are responsible for keeping control of your vehicle at all times. Your choice to drive your car at it's limit without being fully aware of it's emergency handling characteristics was your's alone. You were careless. You were foolish. You wrecked.

 

I conclude that the only defective component in the vehicle system was the nut behind the wheel. Sorry to be so harsh, but you asked.

 

BTW, what was the legal posted speed limit on the turn in question?

[coloradosubarules]

It's almost like saying, "I was pulling a trailer with a boat on it and when I went to slam on the brakes it didn't stop like it does with no trailer."

 

 

When you push your car to the limits when it is loaded to the limits...the sky (heaven) is the limit.

 

Be carefull and drive safe please.

[cookie]

try it in a rear engine Porsche sometime. This is the reson I sold my 911 after I realized I was never going to learn not to lift after so many years of driving.

[Guest JonTito]

Thread, thanks for your comments. However, the car was not at its "limits" as I still had a firm-grip (The tires that is. My head is another thing, entirely.) Had I been at its limits, I never would have suddenly lifted, as I would have been feathering the throttle to maintain my line. Also, I should have provided more detail on the "four boxes of books and files in the cargo area". I had two of the standard US Postal Service plastic carriers and two (one small and one medium) unopened USP packages of annual updates to reference- books that I subscribe to. Had to be 50 to 75lbs. max and they were jammed laterally against the rear of the front seats with the back-seats in fold-down position. I don't enjoy things sliding around as I go through those twisties where I have the conditions to drive near the limits, including, no "Officer Bob" Honey-Holes, weather, visibility and no traffic. Normally, in my commute to the mountains, that is in an uphill condition, as Bob always sets up on downhills. I had no previous problems "at the limits", loaded even heavier and in the rear with the back seats up, as it was almost always an uphill condition and I never suddenly-lifted. My big mistake was not doing my research first and finding out I needed to gently lift. See my response to "blitz" and thanks for your last line. I will. Merry Christmas

JonTito

It's almost like saying, "I was pulling a trailer with a boat on it and when I went to slam on the brakes it didn't stop like it does with no trailer."

 

 

When you push your car to the limits when it is loaded to the limits...the sky (heaven) is the limit.

 

Be carefull and drive safe please.

[Guest JonTito]

"scottzg", thanks for your comments. Additional factual information is available in my replies to "blitz" and what was incorrectly labeled by my rookie-error, as comments to "Thread". They were intended to go to "coloradosubarules". I did screw-up by not doing my homework first and got lucky. Merry Christmas

JonTito

heh, you're not going to get anywhere. You took a very evenly balanced car, loaded up the back, and went around the turn at "just shy of loss-of-grip at 70," and lifted at the apex. A little stupid, in my humble opinion. A well balanced car like the legacy wagon will brake and hold the road better than any other arangement. This of course is safer. Muck with the weight as you did, and you have to be aware of the way the car will handle. The car is designed to have predictable limits, but without traction control it can't protect you from yourself.

 

My suggestion is to unload that car immediately and get something with no rear sway bar or with traction control. Or, you could drive a bit more gently when you have a load of junk in the back.

[blitz]

Jon, here's the thing; there's nothing wrong with enjoying the sportiness of your car, but do it prudently. There's no "one-size-fits-all" prudence, you gotta create your own special version that fits you.

 

Test the emergency handling characteristics of your car at lower speeds, then progress gingerly to medium speeds, but do it where no one else will be in danger. Also do it out of sight of law enforcement, because even though familiarizing yourself with your car's inertias will make you a safer driver, the LEO will be forced to chalk it up as reckless behaviour.

 

From the weight transfer/yaw you get at low and medium speed manuevers, you can deduce pretty well how the vehicle's gonna respond in a high-speed sweeper. (essentially the same, only more exaggerated on the tail out motion).

 

Also, don't drive beyond your visibility. Example: Don't drive through a blind turn at a speed faster than what you will be able to maintain safe control of the vehicle should an obstacle suddenly appear in the roadway. Even if specific speed numbers aren't posted, the law still implies the safe limit as being a speed at which control can be maintained.

 

Bottom line: don't pass the buck. With freedom, comes responsibility.

[kevinsUBARU]

the funniest part of your post is the quote: "your vehicle was checked out and they were unable to duplicate your incident"