66Satellite Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I don't want to seem like a troll here but the one thing keeping me from buying a Subaru is the flimsy doors. What's up with the no window frames? I saw a Subaru designer make some kind of comment in a Car & Driver article (I think) that this approach allowed them to put more weight into the body of the door to provide protection for side impact. If you go to their web site here they have a bunch of fancy ad copy on this: http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/outback/safety/pa_ring.html However, when you see the side-impact test on the new Legacy this is shown to be a bunch of BS. There is good head protection from the side curtain airbags but the Legacy gets a Poor rating for torso protection. http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/side/s0411.htm Strangely, the Forester does ok in the same test--perhaps because of the higher ride height? http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/side/s0312.htm In any case I'm a long time RWD Volvo owner who has about given up on Volvo cause of their crummy reliability/engineering since they switched to FWD. I'd like SUbaru to be my next car but am put off by their door designs. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT95 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 We just bought a 91 RWD Volvo 740 wagon for my wife this past year. She loves it, although she wishes it had more power. RWD was one of the main reasons we picked the car (and the fact that it had apparently been garaged and well maintained.) We both hate FWD cars, which pretty much eliminates 90% of all the cars made today. I just started driving my Legacy wagon this past year and love it. Now, compared to the Volvo, the Subaru is a bit lighter duty. Let me tell you, though, my Subaru is a very solid car. The car I drove just before my Sube was 5 years newer and with significantly fewer miles and my Legacy is SO much more solid than was that thing. The only thing that hasn't held up on this car--other than basic maintenance things that wear--is the cup holder that hides in the dash. It doesn't pop out and retract very smoothly and sticks a bit in the process. That's my complaint in durability from a 10 year old car with over 150,000 miles on it. Well--the dash bulb for my climate control switches is burnt out too, but bulbs do that in older cars. As far as the lack of a door frame--that's one of the things I love about Subaru. I've always hated door frames, especially in the summer when you have your window down. Their door hinge assembly is a solid design, but I bet the lack of that door frame compared to your Volvo door makes the Sube seem a bit flimsy, especially if you are in the habit of grabbing the top of your door frame to close the doors. Not to mention the distinctive sound a Subaru door makes when closed. Like I said, we love the Volvo, but my Subaru has more power than the Volvo (and doesn't sound like a tractor ) and does better in messy road conditions with the AWD. Now, if my family were to be involved in a crash and I somehow got to pick which car we were in, I'd go with the Volvo. Compared to the average unibodied vehicle on the road, though, Subarus are pretty safe. They don't give you that old Buick boat sense of protection, but the Subes do better than many cars in their class in crash tests. In short, I wouldn't let a door keep me from driving a Subaru. They are one of few newer cars I would fool with. I was initially impressed with how solid our Volvo wagon was when we bought it, and I have also been very impressed with how solid my Subaru is. The AWD feels good if you hate the FWD tendencies of other cars. Not so sure about the newer ones, but my 95 is a joy to work on the engine. No bloody knuckles and multiple obscenities shouted in trying to change spark plugs or change oil. No stupid sideways engine to fool with. I'd educate myself on the headgasket issue (if you're going used) some of the earlier 2.5 engines had and avoid that if I could. Any new Subaru would do you impressive service. Now there's a car to smack into an SUV in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carfreak85 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 One thing Subaru talks about in some press releases is the fact that you can roll down your window with the door open and sit on the top of the door while bouncing up and down and the door will still close perfectly. Also the use of a frameless window is safer. You can put your hand in the window portion of the door and slam it and the window will not crush your hand, but it will also not deform at all. I accidently tried the latter on a volvo that belonged to my friend's parents when I was in elementry school and the results were less than steller. I have tried both of these tricks on my Dad's WRX and they work. Try it in your volvo and let me know the results! (Try it in the sube, but not the volvo.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe01forester Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 The exposed window edges really aren't too much of a problem. I was t-boned by a minivan going about 15 mph and the windows didn't even crack! Needed a new door, but the windows were still intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngenx Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I love both our Subies, but truthfully, I find the doors tinny and the entire body structures flexy. There is lots of wind noise, tire noise and the frameless doors don't do a great job of insulating sound. I find the steering too light, brakes need too much effort and the pedal is soft and the interior switchgear feels plasticky and hollow. Now, to be fair, this is in comparision to my Mercedes. But, when new, our OBW was just about the same MSRP and the Forester not far behind. Why do I love the Subarus? The AWD system is awesome, and to get an MB with 4-matic is a huge jump in price. Also, overall reliability of the Subarus is the equal or better of the MB. Both the Subies have more interior space, better stereos and some off-road capability, unlike the 4-matic MB sedans. Also, Subaru models do well in crash testing and despite missing some safety gear (no standard side bags, no ETRs) they are very safe. The other thing I love about Subaru is the dismal resale. We bought both our three year old Subies for less than half of MSRP and for far less than I could pick up a similar German AWD model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 In any case I'm a long time RWD Volvo owner who has about given up on Volvo cause of their crummy reliability/engineering since they switched to FWD. I'd like SUbaru to be my next car but am put off by their door designs. Thoughts? Greetings from another long-time RWD Volvo owner. When it came time to park the 240 wagon, I went car shopping with the idea of my ideal car - a Volvo 240 wagon with all wheel drive. The new Volvos just aren't the same.....sigh.... Overall, I'm very happy with my Outback. The one exception is the dreaded head gasket issue. Well, two exceptions - the seats aren't that great - Volvo makes the best seats on the planet, bar none. Otherwise, the Outback is very sturdy and reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 My 92 legacy, which has basically the same drivetrain as any new manual subi, has proven to be very tough. I drive the thing like I stole it, all the time, and it keeps on running. I took down a 6" wide, 2' tall stump withe the car, got it jammed between the rear floorpan and the gastank, gunned it and drove it right off. No problems at all. It can out-hillclimb a Suzuki samuri in a sandpit, rockbash and mud with the best of them. I give the car no mercy, and it has proved to be worth every penny of the $75 I paid. I think the frameless windows are a good thing. I have never shattered one of my windows closing the door, which I do by the window, and I have closed my fingers in it. You can feel it, but it doesn't hurt. I think it's an advantage in a crash, there's less to jam the door from opening after an accident. I hit a tree sideways in my loyale, and the lack of a frame saved the window. The big squishy gasket allows the window to move outside of its normal position without shattering. The window has cocked as much as a 1/2" at one corner, but it still didn't break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 My 92 legacy, which has basically the same drivetrain as any new manual subi, has proven to be very tough. I drive the thing like I stole it, all the time, and it keeps on running. I took down a 6" wide, 2' tall stump withe the car, got it jammed between the rear floorpan and the gastank, gunned it and drove it right off. No problems at all. It can out-hillclimb a Suzuki samuri in a sandpit, rockbash and mud with the best of them. I give the car no mercy, and it has proved to be worth every penny of the $75 I paid. I think the frameless windows are a good thing. I have never shattered one of my windows closing the door, which I do by the window, and I have closed my fingers in it. You can feel it, but it doesn't hurt. I think it's an advantage in a crash, there's less to jam the door from opening after an accident. I hit a tree sideways in my loyale, and the lack of a frame saved the window. The big squishy gasket allows the window to move outside of its normal position without shattering. The window has cocked as much as a 1/2" at one corner, but it still didn't break. I also have a 92 Legacy wagon (and at $75, you did steal it. . . ), and have never considered the doors to be "flimsy". Have you taken a look at the doors on a Suzuki Sidekick? The doors on my Subaru are at least as solidly built as any import and most "domestic" cars in the last pair of decades (within the same class, you can leave trucks and the like out of this. I don't care what Subaru clasifies them as, they are small wagons). The whole car is built like a tank (I know, I have driven it like it was one), but it has the spirit of a sports car (I've driven it like one of these as well. . . ). All in all My Subaru is very solidly built, doors and all. I don't need a window frame to prove it (particularly when I've seen so many of these fail). . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lothar34 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 The new B9X crossover/suv thing has framed windows. Maybe you could look into one of those: http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/2005_detroit/subaru/b9x/pages/1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66Satellite Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Wow, great replies--this is definitely a real car site filled with true car nuts. Seems to me that door frames would help make the body more rigid and would improve the general soundness of the structure in a side impact or if you were to roll the car. My old Plymouth hardtop also doesn't have door frames--but then that was for fashion (hardtops were based on the vert bodies back in the 60s--no B pillar either) and of course there's probably more steel in one door than there is an entire Legacy. I've driven the 95-99 Legacies and felt a lot of body flex, and when you close the doors it just feels like nothing. It just seems like a cost saving manuever to me. Then again maybe I'm just too used to 60s Mopars and 70s/80s Volvos... Agree about the resale value. Comined with the AWD it makes them very attractive. I'm thinking of a 2000+ Legacy or 2001+ Outback. Again, it's the flimsyness of the doors and lack of side airbags that makes me hesitate a bit. I was expecting to see some improvement in the 2005 Legacy but other than side airbags it's not there. The stupid old Accords and Camrys do better in side impact tests and had side airbags available befor Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngenx Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Our 01 OBW has side airbags, but only the "Limited" (not sure what it was called in the US) trim level has them. It included an upgraded sound system with window glass antenna, leather interior, dual sunroofs, gold trim wheels, and some other minor things. I wanted to find a Forester Limited, but thay are rare birds indeed in my parts. It was tough enough finding a cherry "S" trim model. I think off-lease Subies (3-4 year old models) are bargains! We bought our OBW last year, and at barely three years old, we paid about 40% of MSRP, and that was from a dealer. I could not find a private sale Limited version, unfortunately. The AWD system in the Subaru is not inexpensive to produce and they have struggled with currency fluctuations trying to keep MSRP's in line. I don't think the 2005 Legacys are all that good value wise, with a 2005 Outback Ltd. striking well into the $40K's, and coming hard on $50K. (Canuck bucks) I know in three years it'll sell for 20K tops, maybe even $16-18K. I'm not willing to take a $10,000 per year depreciation hit. Thankfully, there are those that do, and then bail just as the depreciation "cliff" is levelling off. One thing I do like better on the Forester is the door handles. They're a pull-type instead of the flip-up levers. But, the Forester doors are no more robust than the OBW doors. Now, in fairness, the CR-V/Rav4, etc. doors are no better, and none of the Japanese products have the same body strength of the European makes, especially Mercedes and Volvo. I just haven't seen "bank vault" doors on any Japanese make, even their luxury cars. The value of the current Japanese makes is their reliability, especially with respect to elelctrical components. My Mercedes' four cylinder engine has massive bearings, forged steel crank-shaft and pistons (no cast parts!) and a monsterous double row timing chain. Those engines easily go 500,000km's without having any work at all done. However, you get $1000'd to death with other repairs, mostly electrical parts. Power windows, AC/ACC systems, audio components, Air Mass Meters, and for some years entire wiring harnesses. A drive-by-wire system repair can be $3000 on some models, and replacing an evaporator on many MB's is a $7500 job. The driveline will last decades, but your bank account is drained by other parts. My Father-in-Law is a Volvo nut, having owned a 245 that he bought new in 78 and finally retired in 96 with about 600K on the odo. He bought an 850 and it was pretty much worn-through last year with only 170K on it. No driveline problems, but thousands in suspension, AC, and other repairs. He bought an S60AWD this year, and has had no problems, but he never drives it, either. The relative simplicity of my current C230 has meant that it has been very reliable and inexpensive to operate, but it lacks a great deal of the technology contained in the newer cars. The new cars integrate many systems into single "busses" and complex units, where the Japanese makes use discrete systems for the same purposes, meaning simpler components, but more of them. This seems to work better. I don't know why MB needs a super-computer to run the power windows. My perfect car would have the structure designed and manufactured by Mercedes with a Mercedes driveline attached to a Subaru AWD system, Toyota electronics and Hyundai warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66Satellite Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 My perfect car would have the structure designed and manufactured by Mercedes with a Mercedes driveline attached to a Subaru AWD system, Toyota electronics and Hyundai warranty. Hmmm, then maybe you'd like the new AWD Dodge Magnum wagon? http://www.dodge.com/magnum/index.html?context=vehiclePage&type=vehicleLink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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