Advice on Noisy Timing Belt Pulleys

[dirkfabian]

Hey all -- First post for me -- hope to get some advice.

 

I am currently going through Head Gasket Hell with a '97 Outback that I just picked up used - luckily the HGs were warranteed from the dealer where I bought the car. *sigh* But now my car is at the mechanics and the engine is out. I just got the list on all the _other_ things he thinks should be done to bring the car up to snuff.

 

I'm definitely doing a new clutch - the old one was doing the flakey jumping after cold starts (no, i'm not just a crappy 5sp driver). How do I know that I'm getting one of the new improved clutches that don't have this issue so much?

 

Also, new rear seals; check the radiator, thermostat, timing belt all understandable fixes.

 

BUT! The kicker is that he says that the timing belt pulleys are somewhat noisy and I should replace all 4 pulleys at about $110 per pulley. OUCH.

 

Questions:

Could someone give me the lowdown on whether this is VERY BAD THING, something that should be done while the engine is out (like the clutch) or is this a "would be a good idea to" item, but can be done either with the engine out or in. I realize that this is an interference engine and that a timing belt failiure due to a seized pulley can be super bad. I've also noticed that the car would shake a little on idle - I initially wrote this off to the warped heads - but now I think it might be these pulleys? Any opinions? Advice? Help!

 

I read on another thread about folks using a syringe to inject some more lube into the sealed bearing housing for these pulleys. Is this something a mechanical moron like me can do (most i've ever done is alternators, headlights, and oil changes.) Does it work? Pitfalls?

 

Thanks much for any insight to my predicament -- i'm looking for a reliable car and wondering why the outbacks aren't as bomber as my '87 wagon, my '92 wagon or my deer-mauled '95 wagon. A little frustrated.

 

cheers, Dirk

[Setright]

What's the mileage? The smooth pulleys usually last 120k miles before getting noisy.

 

The toothed belt follower will usually only last as long as the timing belt, so DO replace that one.

 

All can be done with the engine in the car. Some people remove the radiator to gain space, but the engine doesn't have to be out.

[dirkfabian]

What's the mileage? The smooth pulleys usually last 120k miles before getting noisy.

 

Yup, we're at 120,000.

 

So I was looking on a diagram and there seems to be 4 toothed pulleys that grab the bottom of the belt and 2-3 smooth ones that ride along the top of it. I would guess that the noisy ones are the toothed ones. Which one do you mean, as it looks likes there are a couple of those.

 

Also, what's up with this belt tensioner? I've been reading that there is some recall/replacement in effect for the Outbacks. Is that something that ought to be replaced (hopefully on their dime).

 

Thanks for the response! - Dirk

[Tiny Clark]

If the belt pulleys don't make noise when you spin them by hand, then don't let them BS you.

[hklaine]

I did my timing belt over the summer (110k) and replaced the pulleys which weren't smooth when spun by hand.

 

Is this car a 2.5? If dealing with an interference motor the expense you might incur if one of these seizes and stops/skips/breaks the timing belt may be more than the cost to replace them now.

 

Same deal with the water pump. If it is the same setup as my car you will want to do that as well. I prefer to replace the pump on every other timing belt. It's not that expensive and can save you time/money/effort in the future if it hasn't been replaced yet.

 

-Heikki

[Scottbaru]

I'd like to get some of those used pulleys, to see if I can replace the bearings. I moonlight as a project engineer at a machine shop, design and build industrial machinery. I could make a set of smooth pulleys, hardened with good bearings, but that would still be $$. I'd like to start with some old ones, anyone? Any difference for 2.2 vs 2.5?

[dirkfabian]

I'd like to get some of those used pulleys, to see if I can replace the bearings. I moonlight as a project engineer at a machine shop, design and build industrial machinery. I could make a set of smooth pulleys, hardened with good bearings, but that would still be $$. I'd like to start with some old ones, anyone? Any difference for 2.2 vs 2.5?

 

I just asked my mechanic to save me the old pulleys. I can definitely ship'em to you. Drop me a note at dirkfabian @ hotmail.com. They are heavy buggers.

 

So I spun the pulleys as was suggested. Okay, not completely silent like the new ones, but also no grinding nor were they rough to spin. Just some noise. So I still have no idea about if I just ate $500 for parts and labor for nothing or not. How loud is too loud? I'm trying to imagine those things doing 3000 rpms, for hours on end, and i just can't extrapolate that into estimating whether they will work or not. Guess it's too late anyway.

 

Owwie owwie owwie.

[Scottbaru]

Check your mailbox. Hopefully not too $$$ from Washington to Michigan. Better if someone around Chicago has some, I work out of O'Hare.

[tcspeer]

I had one of my timing belt pullys go out and it cost me an engine. You can get them cheaper than the price you mentioned. Try first Subaru parts or Lithia Subaru, you should be able to get them for nearly half the price you quoted. If they are not smooth and quite I would change them. An change them at least every other belt change anyway.

[idosubaru]

the bearings can be replaced. you'll need a local bearing supplier (unless you can find them online, i have not found them on line for my subaru XT6's). but i did find suppliers that sell the bearings. you'd need a press to remove the old and install the new bearings. the part number is right across the face of the bearings. take them to a bearing supply place and they can either get the exact same one or cross reference the part number to other brands.

[Scottbaru]

It's a no-brainer if the bearing numbers are visible. I buy a lot of bearings, get excellent prices, and have a lot of experience pressing them in and out. Time, bearing cost, and shipping might bring my cost too close to $50 new to be worthwhile, but I'd like to try it.

[bearbalu]

These idler pulleys are 55 bucks each at 1stsubaruparts.com... you might want to see if you can get from there. You can also compare new idlers at dealership with old ones. If you are planning keeping the car for a while, it would be worthwhile replacing if they are noisy. If you are planning selling in a year or two, you can take your chances...

[Scottbaru]

I see four different idler pulleys there for my car. One is a tensioner, the others all point to the toothed pulley. I didn't expect to see much variety in idler pulleys. I'd hoped to find the shipping cost.

[soobyfan]

I saw this thread from way back, any luck on replacing just the bearings in the idler pulleys?

 

My cogged idler (NSK) has 2 ea NSK 6005DWA sealed bearings

 

One smooth idler (NSK) has 1 ea NSK 6006DU2 sealed bearing

 

The other smooth idler is a Koyo, the number is DDG1060ARDIH, and it appears it will not press apart. It is the newer wide bearing style smooth idler.

 

I have a question for those knowledgeable on bearings. I have found cross references for the NSK bearings, but no direct match for those ending in DU2. Is a -DDU a suitable replacement, also there is a -2RS that may be readily available.

 

Do the OEM's put in special grease or are these garden variety bearings?

[mdjdc]

I just replaced the timing sets on my two outbacks and got OEM spec sets from a company in the north west. The Import Experts 1-800-572-3681 sold me a full timing set for each car for 189.95 plus shipping. Each set included the belt, tensioner and idler pulleys. A far better deal than the one you are talking about for those four pullies. 100.00 per pully is just robbery.

 

These are all new not reman either. Great people to work with.

 

Good Luck

[nipper]

There is nothing wrong with replacing just the beareings, as the hard parts themselves never go bad. Why there isnt a market for rebuilt TB pullies i dont know. I tired to figure out why the prices are so high for these things, and I couldnt.

 

nipper

[avk]

The other smooth idler is a Koyo, the number is DDG1060ARDIH, and it appears it will not press apart. It is the newer wide bearing style smooth idler.

With OE parts, the newer double-row idler supercedes the other one which has a bearing. That is, both smooth idlers are now the same part. Most aftermarkets kits still contain two different idlers, or sometimes two of the older type.

[idosubaru]

if the bearings are noisey at all, my solution is the aftermarket kits as well. if i'm doing work on a friends car they typically don't want to spend that kind of money for all new stuff, so OE replacement is out. but, if i quote them a far cheaper price, they get brand new stuff and are willing to pay for it. i'd rather have new aftermarket than old, noisey OEM.

[porcupine73]

With OE parts, the newer double-row idler supercedes the other one which has a bearing. That is, both smooth idlers are now the same part.

That's good info. I ordered OEM the black (double row) and orange (single row) idlers. and rec'd two double row ones, which do look more robust.

[soobyfan]

I have a question re: part numbers of the old vs new.

 

Is p/n 13073AA190 smooth idler pulley a direct replacement for p/n 13073AA142 smooth idler pulley?

 

The 142 is the single bearing style.

[ferret]

BE CAREFUL ON THESE PULLEYS. NOT ALL SMOOTH OR TOOTHED PULLEYS ARE THE SAME. Changing the bearing is OK, but don't swap an unknown pulley into 3 otherwise good pulleys.

 

Subaru, in it's infinite wisdom, has used different pulleys ( with different p/n's ) on the same engine. And they are NOT interchangeable. At least not to the longevity of the belt. Be certain you are using the correct p/n that matches the other pulleys and belt you are using.

 

On the 2.5L DOHC, they used the same from 97 - 99, but the 96 is different. ALSO the SOHC 2.5L are not all the same either. Some are shaped curved toward the outside, others completely smooth. Also the geared idler may have the same number teeth and same diameter, but different tooth pitch.

 

My advice ...ALWAYS used a valid substitute p/n for the one you are replacing. Looks here are deceiving.

 

EXAMPLE: 2003 SOHC Legacy/Outback looks identical to the 2003 SOHC Forester. Different P/n Pulleys on Cams, Different P/N smooth and geared pulleys AND different p/n Timing Belt. SAME NUMBER OF TEETH. Different pitch, and different way the back rides on the smooth pulleys.

 

What puzzles me about the above ..... same Water pump, same Tensioner.

 

Once again, my experiences and $.02, take it for what you want.

[mnwolftrack]

Grossgary,

 

Was it you that mentioned a while back that the bearings are greasable and that you often do this instead of replacing them, but that you need a special fitting to get the grease into the bearings? If yes, could you elaborate on the special fitting and where to get it? My pulleys are all good, but I might as well grease them while they are out, if at all possible.

[idosubaru]

Grossgary,

Was it you that mentioned a while back that the bearings are greasable and that you often do this instead of replacing them, but that you need a special fitting to get the grease into the bearings? .

 

yes, but be forewarned with EJ series engines. first i'd practice on a few. second i would be very cautious about doing this on an interference engine or one with 105,000 mile change interval. i would plan on a couple inspections between timing belt changes if you do it just to be sure of your work.

 

for non interference motors, go to town, i've had good success with this. the old EA82 pulleys are the least friendly to this technique but they are also the cheapest to buy. the ER27 and i think all EJ pulleys are easily accessible. i'd have another set on hand to practice/interchange with. don't expect to get it just right the first time and proceed slowly and accurately.

 

there's a write up in the USRM with pictures:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50430

 

the results are outstanding if you take your time. the pulleys feel exactly like a new one if you do it right. the issue with doing it carefully is whether or not you deform the seal, proceed cautiously and less is more. also, don't over-grease it, that will push the seals out and even more so once the grease heats up. the inserts are readily available at auto parts stores, it's just a generic needle fitting. look for the smallest one they have, might want to research online and see if there are smaller sizes available.

 

once you get it down, it's nearly free and doesn't take long at all. and no worries about which ones are going to need replacing once you get in there.

[porcupine73]

Hm..yes the regreasing. I have some pulleys that don't have a lot of freeplay, and turn fairly smoothly, but they are a little raspy when turning, like you can sort of 'feel' the bearings turning. They're not squeaky. Do you think these would be good candidates for regreasing?

[idosubaru]

but they are a little raspy when turning, like you can sort of 'feel' the bearings turning. They're not squeaky. Do you think these would be good candidates for regreasing?

definitely. they are just low on grease, that's all. repack them and they'll turn and feel identical to a new one if it's done right. no more noise or rough feeling. keep in mind that seal is very thin metal and deforms easily, you want to move it as little as possible and not deform or wrinkle it. that's why practice is a good thing. it's possible to even remove the entire seal and reinstall it but i do not recommend that, i haven't found that necessary.