Has Subaru Peaked?

[9098]

There seems to be a consensus on this board that Subaru started going down hill with the Phase I engine. Back in 1990, Subaru was leading the industry with full time 4WD in a sedan. Now, even Ford has steped up to that plate. What does Subaru have to offer that seperates itself from the rest of the overcrowded crowd? I'm not seeing it.

Long live the 90' Legacy!

[Novakaine]

I don't know if they are going down hill. But there are a lot of companies coming into the four wheel drive market. Toyota has the Matrix and lexus something with 4WD, i think honda has a few, including the new acura 3.5 RL...and so on and so fourth. I hardly think Ford is the biggest threat to Subarus market share. Plus, subaru has years of experience in the AWD system...so i count on them for a more reliable AWD car.

[85Sub4WD]

They still have the best AWD system on the planet - other companies offer AWD - but their systems are about a decade behind Subaru's - just put them on a slick surface and watch - most do not have an adiquate means of channeling the engine's power and getting out of slippery situations

 

the biggest thing I see is that Subaru has maintained a high quality drive train with reliable transmissions - I have yet to see many (if any) match the overall drivetrain reliability (I have seen many trannies burnt-up) - Subaru is also the only manufacturer offering a manual transmission AWD car right now - rest of the manufacturers make theirs available only as automatics - which are inherently less reliable

 

Ford's 4WD/AWD system uses a chain to connect the front and rear diffs - think how reliable that is

 

BTW - FWD means Front Wheel Drive - that is nothing radical

Subaru has been offering AWD or (Full-Time 4WD (FT4WD) as it was called then) since 1987/1988 on the L-cars - only difference is that the legacy has a LSD center differential and the L-cars have to be locked manually when needed

[howards11]

Here in Philadelphia I keep seeing more and more Foresters on the street. They out number by at least 2 to 1 the number of Outbacks I see. Has Subaru peaked ? I don't think so.

 

My podiatrist bought a 2005 Honda CR-V after owning two Foresters. He can't stand the CRV ! It rides like a truck and handles like one. Plus he says he misses the storage compartments among other creature comforts. The CR-V is higher and harder to get into. Now here's something interesting according to him items that were standard on the Forester are optional on the CR-V. I think he can't wait to get rid of it !

Moral of the story: he should have gotten another Subie.

 

 

~Howard

[calebz]

What does Subaru have to offer that seperates itself from the rest of the overcrowded crowd? I'm not seeing it.

 

Symetrical AWD - Boxer motor.

[85Sub4WD]

Boxer motor.

I forgot to mention that - I think most of the members could fill a thread talking about the advantages of the motor alone. And that is ONLY Subaru.

 

Heat dissapation, rpm capeability, fuel economy, reliability, serviceability, lower center of gravity (better handeling) ....

[9098]

They still have the best AWD system on the planet - other companies offer AWD - but their systems are about a decade behind Subaru's - just put them on a slick surface and watch - most do not have an adiquate means of channeling the engine's power and getting out of slippery situations

 

the biggest thing I see is that Subaru has maintained a high quality drive train with reliable transmissions - I have yet to see many (if any) match the overall drivetrain reliability (I have seen many trannies burnt-up) - Subaru is also the only manufacturer offering a manual transmission AWD car right now - rest of the manufacturers make theirs available only as automatics - which are inherently less reliable

 

Ford's 4WD/AWD system uses a chain to connect the front and rear diffs - think how reliable that is

 

BTW - FWD means Front Wheel Drive - that is nothing radical

Subaru has been offering AWD or (Full-Time 4WD (FT4WD) as it was called then) since 1987/1988 on the L-cars - only difference is that the legacy has a LSD center differential and the L-cars have to be locked manually when needed

 

Your right, I meant Full Time 4wd. And your point about the Ford awd system is well taken. However, it seems like Subaru is resting on its laurels. The reliability has gone down hill with the start of the 2.5L engines. I have a 90' Legacy with the F4wd and a 98 Outback with the beloved 2.5. I have not had a blown head, but it has had expensive oil leaks, piston slap, and a check engine light. My moms 2001 Outback has a dirvers door that sags when opened, a strange rattle from the back end, piston slap, and a check engine light with only 28,000 miles on it. Yet, my 90' Legacy with 178,000 miles is a rock. It runs just like the day it was new.

I would still buy a Subaru over a Chevy any day. The Blazer is complete electrical grabage.

[jamal]

I'd say the new Honda AWD-SH system and Audi's quattro are more advanced than Subaru. The STi's DCCD, which rocks, is probably the only thing Subaru has on their level. VDC just brakes the wheels that slip. Yes, Subaru has a great AWD system, but I'm tired of everyone saying "I don't trust no computer to run my AWD" whenever Honda and Audi are mentioned.

 

I think the new cars are the best Subaru has ever made. Yeah, the first gen legacy was great (I've got a 93 AWD), and probably better than the BD. Since the usdm WRX came out, Subaru has been kicking rump roast. The 05 Legacy is awesome, we have an STi, we have a turbo forester, and STi models of the Legacy and Forester are on the way.

 

Video of the new Audi RS-4

Video of an A6 climbing a ski jump ramp (right click save as)

RS4 article

[svxpert]

<<The reliability has gone down hill with the start of the 2.5L engines.>>

 

possibly, they had a rough start. they got better with development. Now, there in the 2.2 catigory of reliability. Just look at the STi 2.5 engine and the de-tuned Turbo Legacy engine. Nothing wrong with them. Soon, all Subarus will have 2.5 or 3.0 engines in them. (hint-hint)

[powderhound]

Audi has AWD with manual trans. and the cr-v does if you call that awd. and I'm sure you can get a 911 turbo, which is awd, with a manual. Just sayin Suby's not the only one.

 

The debate between Quattro and Subaru AWD could go long into the night...both have their pluses and quirks. BUT nobody makes a flat four engine...oh except now they're in Saabs...yeah Subaru is going down hill. It's called GMitis.

[The Dude]

I forgot to mention that - I think most of the members could fill a thread talking about the advantages of the motor alone. And that is ONLY Subaru.

 

Heat dissapation, rpm capeability, fuel economy, reliability, serviceability, lower center of gravity (better handeling) ....

 

 

I agree the boxer engine has a lot of advantages. It happens rarely, but the boxer has one unique disadvantge-hyrdolocking. If one of the fuel injectors leaks overnight, the pressurized fuel will leak into the cylinder. The horizontal boxer cylinder will fill up with fuel. Crank the engine, gasoline doesn't compress, new piston and connecting needed.

[Scottbaru]

Maybe they've all peaked. The 5-cylinder awd VW and Audis were some of the finest awd vehicles made, and they lasted well into the 200k mileage with average care. A lot of guys "upgraded" to the newer Audis, only to discover newer Audis were more sophisiticated but less reliable. Awd technologies have improved tremendously, making it cheaper to produce a respectable system, but overall quality seems to have slipped everywhere.

[85Sub4WD]

Audi has AWD with manual trans. and the cr-v does if you call that awd. and I'm sure you can get a 911 turbo, which is awd, with a manual. Just sayin Suby's not the only one.

 

The debate between Quattro and Subaru AWD could go long into the night...both have their pluses and quirks. BUT nobody makes a flat four engine...oh except now they're in Saabs...yeah Subaru is going down hill. It's called GMitis.

When I meant AWD stickshift, I meant in a small SUV package, many performance cars are looking at if not going to the AWD-stick design b/c of the STI

 

Quattro is simply not as rugged as a Subaru - the underbody is completely different

 

The basic difference between Subaru's system and everybody else's is that most other manufacturers use a system which employs the brakes to reroute torque - Subaru uses a mechanism which rerouts power, and is therefore more efficent

 

Saab's flat four engine is a rebadged Subaru engine - just an FYI

 

GM owns 20% of Subaru - pretty much all of Saab - they can't dictate Subaru's designs, but they can get rights to their stuff

 

I agree the boxer engine has a lot of advantages. It happens rarely, but the boxer has one unique disadvantge-hyrdolocking. If one of the fuel injectors leaks overnight, the pressurized fuel will leak into the cylinder. The horizontal boxer cylinder will fill up with fuel. Crank the engine, gasoline doesn't compress, new piston and connecting needed.

How many more Soob cars has that happened on than other manufacturers? I know of I-4's doing the same thing - as well as V-8's or any other engine. All fuel injected cars now use a highly pressureized fuel system, as well as similar/same type injectors - so the risk of one getting stuck is the same. In addition to that, there is a greater chance of a vertically-mounted engine having a hydrolocking problem because in a flat design the gas should leak out of the valves before it completely filled the cylinder, as the valves are mounted sideways too.

 

I am just saying that the boxer engine is no more suceptable to this kind of damage than any other engine - in fact probably less.

 

The one big disadvantage to a flat-four design is oil consumption and leakage.

[uniberp]

When I meant AWD stickshift, I meant in a small SUV package, many performance cars are looking at if not going to the AWD-stick design b/c of the STI

 

Quattro is simply not as rugged as a Subaru - the underbody is completely different

 

The basic difference between Subaru's system and everybody else's is that most other manufacturers use a system which employs the brakes to reroute torque - Subaru uses a mechanism which rerouts power, and is therefore more efficent

 

Saab's flat four engine is a rebadged Subaru engine - just an FYI

 

GM owns 20% of Subaru - pretty much all of Saab - they can't dictate Subaru's designs, but they can get rights to their stuff

 

 

How many more Soob cars has that happened on than other manufacturers? I know of I-4's doing the same thing - as well as V-8's or any other engine. All fuel injected cars now use a highly pressureized fuel system, as well as similar/same type injectors - so the risk of one getting stuck is the same. In addition to that, there is a greater chance of a vertically-mounted engine having a hydrolocking problem because in a flat design the gas should leak out of the valves before it completely filled the cylinder, as the valves are mounted sideways too.

 

I am just saying that the boxer engine is no more suceptable to this kind of damage than any other engine - in fact probably less.

 

The one big disadvantage to a flat-four design is oil consumption and leakage.

 

 

How is a boxer inherently more leaky? I understand the consumption, oil not draining thoroughly at power off, and collecting possibly somewhat more in cam galleys, but why leakage? Is there more stretch from piston top to piston top? If it's the aluminum thing, then it's not the boxer design.

[85Sub4WD]

How is a boxer inherently more leaky? I understand the consumption, oil not draining thoroughly at power off, and collecting possibly somewhat more in cam galleys, but why leakage? Is there more stretch from piston top to piston top? If it's the aluminum thing, then it's not the boxer design.

The greater leakage has to do with the cam/crank seals (not the alum block) - it is the fact that the oil is in more contact with them b/c it flows down due to gravity, and that means it will probably come in contact with the seals, because the valvetrain is mounted sideways - more of a problem with pre-EJ (Legacy) engines, and subaru has pretty much solved it at this point - but it plagued the EA82 (loyale and late 80's L-car engine) - actually consumption is not as much a problem as one might think with normal operation - but if the car sits for a while (week or more), the oil will find the cylinders, and send a smoke signal at startup (similar to the symptoms of worn valve seals in older V-8's) - once again, more of a problem with the older engines - Subaru has solved these problems with improved design

 

all this is really proof that Subaru is more on top of its game now than ever before, as even oil leakage is not really a problem anymore

[s'ko]

Audi climbing the ski jump ramp was pretty impressive. I am sure that a Sti would be able to do the same. Maybe even a WRX is you gave it enough run up.

 

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a lifted t-cased EA w/ studded snow tires could inch it's way up. (ok maybe that's stretching it)

 

I think that Subaru in the US Subaru has gotten itself into a nice niche.

The Impreza platform is for 30 something single adults/married w/o kids who want performace and versatility.

Legacy platform is for families that want the size of a minivan, but the road manners of a car.

the B-9 is their answer to those who want a Minivan/large SUV and want to stay within the Subaru stable.

 

5 years ago, you were hard pressed to find any performance parts for an Impreza, have one featured in a magazine or even in an add. Now there are Soobs everywhere. WRX performance parts are being offered by every aftermarket company. (Guess it has gone full circle for the GC8 chassis b/c now it's difficult to find parts for the pre-WRX Imprezas)

 

Anywho. We all belong to the board b/c we love our soobs and most likely will buy another one when the time comes to get a new car. In my opinion Subaru needs to go to the other end of the spectrum and offer an AWD econo box. Toyota started the Scion brand to get young people to get buy Toyota. I heard somewhere that Scion is barely making money due to costs in production and their low sale price. BUT THEIR FIRST CAR IS A TOYOTA and most likely they will buy another Toyota.

 

BW

[uniberp]

Audi climbing the ski jump ramp was pretty impressive. I am sure that a Sti would be able to do the same. Maybe even a WRX is you gave it enough run up.

 

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if a lifted t-cased EA w/ studded snow tires could inch it's way up. (ok maybe that's stretching it)

 

I think that Subaru in the US Subaru has gotten itself into a nice niche.

The Impreza platform is for 30 something single adults/married w/o kids who want performace and versatility.

Legacy platform is for families that want the size of a minivan' date=' but the road manners of a car.

the B-9 is their answer to those who want a Minivan/large SUV and want to stay within the Subaru stable.

 

5 years ago, you were hard pressed to find any performance parts for an Impreza, have one featured in a magazine or even in an add. Now there are Soobs everywhere. WRX performance parts are being offered by every aftermarket company. (Guess it has gone full circle for the GC8 chassis b/c now it's difficult to find parts for the pre-WRX Imprezas)

 

Anywho. We all belong to the board b/c we love our soobs and most likely will buy another one when the time comes to get a new car. In my opinion Subaru needs to go to the other end of the spectrum and offer an AWD econo box. Toyota started the Scion brand to get young people to get buy Toyota. I heard somewhere that Scion is barely making money due to costs in production and their low sale price. BUT THEIR FIRST CAR IS A TOYOTA and most likely they will buy another Toyota.

 

BW[/quote']

 

 

I absolutely agree. Catering to the expensive acceleration market will just cause more complaints from "users" consumers. Those who can't do, complain. Making an affordable, maintainable comfort-utility vehicle is the smartest thing Subaru could do. And no more "throttle-by-wire"

[TheBrian]

In my opinion Subaru needs to go to the other end of the spectrum and offer an AWD econo box.

Yep, I'd definately buy another Subaru econobox if they made them. But they won't. They've gone from "Inexpensive, and built to stay that way" to "premium car". You can't build a luxury / performance brand image if you have unfashionable, inexpensive, slow cars in your lineup.

That's why, even though I really like Subaru, my next car might be a Toyota. Or maybe a Volvo.

[Meeky Moose]

heh, noone mentioned this.. Toyota has been making (Alltrac) vans, celicas, cars, and wagons, since the late 80's... sure, you don't see them alot but they have..

i have an 88' celica turbo Alltrac... AWD, 5-speed, turbo and its more comfortable, and faster stock than any stock 88' soob.. as far as reliability, well it is a toyota... now boosted to 14PSI my celica will spank a stock WRX.. lol that puts it at about 240ish HP at the crank...

 

not knocking subaru's but i have to agree that they hit a bump in the road with the 2.5 engine...

[subarubrat]

I would say that they are definatly NOT in decline and if anything they are in a golden age that surpasses their early 80's success.

[kickson]

I live in Colorado, and I have never seen as many Subarus on the street as I do now. I can't count how many outbacks I see just driving to and from work everyday. Of course, maybe that's because I don't pay too much attention to any other cars besides Subies! LOL!

[Ranger83]

They still have the best AWD system on the planet - other companies offer AWD - but their systems are about a decade behind Subaru's - just put them on a slick surface and watch - most do not have an adiquate means of channeling the engine's power and getting out of slippery situations

Got any facts to back that up? There are plenty of equally or more sophisticated systems on the market by any measure.

 

the biggest thing I see is that Subaru has maintained a high quality drive train with reliable transmissions - I have yet to see many (if any) match the overall drivetrain reliability (I have seen many trannies burnt-up) - Subaru is also the only manufacturer offering a manual transmission AWD car right now - rest of the manufacturers make theirs available only as automatics - which are inherently less reliable

Reliable as in the 2.5l engine that people here bash for head gasket problems?

 

Audi makes AWD vehicles with manuals, along with BMW, Honda, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Porsche, and Toyota to name those that immediately come to mind.

 

What will save Subaru is GM's investment.

[85Sub4WD]

Got any facts to back that up? There are plenty of equally or more sophisticated systems on the market by any measure.

yes, experience - subaru's drivetrain has no hubs that need to be locked or anything - you just drive it - I already know a friend who had to overhaul the front end of his F-250 b/c his "automatically locking hubs" ate their innards - try anything that Chrystler corp. has made that is 2WD or AWD - needs a tranny every 50k if it is actually driven - the quality is not there

nor is the safety in crashes unless you are in something twice the size of the forrester

 

Subaru's AWD system not only improves handeling under adverse conditions, but also under normal driving conditions

 

if nothing else - look at consumer report's year-end car report on Subaru reliability vs. other small SUV's - there are numbers

Reliable as in the 2.5l engine that people here bash for head gasket problems?

Less than 10% made ever expierenced head gasket failure (number comes from a professional Subaru mechanic via. SOA) - now lets compare that to the number of early Ford Focuses that lost rear wheels or "new" Dodge Caravans that don't have trannies worth a flip - the early 2.5L mishap was rather minor by comparison of number of failures and the severity - head gaskets are nasty when they fail - but they won't cause a traffic accident, like loosing a wheel or tranny will - it was a disappointment because it fell below Subaru's usual reliabilty expectations - look at the big three's head gasket woes for compairison

 

Audi makes AWD vehicles with manuals, along with BMW, Honda, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Porsche, and Toyota to name those that immediately come to mind.

I already stated small, economy SUV's - three have something that may fit that catagory, and I already addressed Audi:

 

Honda - economy stops at gas pump - no MT 4WD in a forrester size for '05 model - I should know as I was auto shopping recently

Mitsubishi - bad trannies/drivetrain - not seen an AWD manual since the mid '90s - and even so, still bad drivetrain - tendency to strip gears on MT boxes used for light-duty applications, and torque converters on automatics

Toyota - no MT offered for '05 - I was just shopping and looked - they offer MTs in model lines that have AWD cars, you just can't get AWD with a MT

 

None of these can come close to the safety record of Subaru either

 

Jeep - the wrangler - that is it - the cherokee hasn't had a manual since 04 or earlier (it is really a rebadged Durango) - neither Wrangler or Cherokee are economy thought they have 4WD

 

BMW has had some of the biggest recalls in the company's history with its AWD system and the X3 and X5 SUV's (I have some friends who recently sold their X5 because of how unstable it was on the road) - the 3 and 5 both are RWD only cars, BMW does not compete with Subaru anyway as Subaru does not make a luxury car

 

Porsche is still new to the game - not enough on the road to tell - and they are not in competition with Subaru as Subaru makes nothing that high-end

 

The only one you have not mentioned is Volvo - and they are probably Subaru's biggest threat - and I know from yet another good friend that it sucks - he junked his '84 for a brand new volvo AWD wagon - likes amenities, hates traction

 

I am around a lot of car people, so I keep in the loop as to what the problems with all the manufacturers are from people who actually own the cars. It helps to know what is really going on out there - Car and Driver and most other "auto magazines" are a real joke and full of hype

 

Look at the performance characteristics of the drivetrains in all of these vehicles - you will see the differances very quickly

 

What will save Subaru is GM's investment.

 

Ha ha ha - really - do you believe the US is Subaru's main focus?

Furthermore, did you actually pay attention to the GM deal?

 

They produce cars for the entire world - Subarus are common in Australia and New Zealand - as well as other more hostile environments

 

We in the US see very little of what Subaru actually makes - they have a dual-range AWD transmission available in Europe and Japan

 

They make a wide range of smaller passenger cars and other vehicles exclusively for their own home market - there is VERY little concern about their place in the US market

 

Renault and Peugeot as well as many other manufacturers have already prooven that the US market is not a key component of corporate success

 

GM bought 20% of Subaru from Nissan - Nissan needed the money, and GM wanted Subaru's drivetrain technology - yes that is why they bought Subaru - it was published in the Raleigh News and Observer's Auto section when the deal took place - and already the Subaru boxer engine has appeared in Saab - funny coincidence

[SevenSisters]

 

Less than 10% made ever expierenced head gasket failure (number comes from a professional Subaru mechanic via. SOA)

 

My god. That's like your doctor saying "Less than 10% of my patients die during routine physicals". Would you go to him? NO. Would you buy a Subaru? YES. WHY?

Subaru needs to clean up thier act.

[Seahag1978]

One thing wrong with your theory. Subaru's car sales in the US are almost half of their total car sales worldwide.

 

Now, on the other hand, the profit realized from Worldwide sales as opposed to US sales (given shipping, import/duty tax, emission compliance in the US) is another story... only Subaru knows that answer.

All I know is that in my little corner of the world, I see more Subaru badges (and Ford trucks) coming toward me than any other. (Toyota comes in next). Anyway, behind the Subaru badge there is almost always a driver that's at/past middle age behind the wheel... car buying/driving experience says a lot more to me!